Why did this helicopter crash ?

sorry lack of coffee after a long shift.

wronge = wrong
powere = power

Sean Trost wrote:

TO THE GROUP..... Regarding Iwan Bogels"


Michael wrote:

As it is, you have a freak show and little else.

The above quoted comments was made today by another poster,
in another newsgroup.

For the last number of days Iwan Bogels"
has crossposted the same or similar message into a variety of
groups like this inviting you to visit his site, and view his crash
videos, so that you may become educated, and learn from the
mistakes of others.

In the piloting newsgroups he has been trying to justify his freakshow
with a number of the regulars who surprising enough for the most part
didn't see all that much wrong with it.

For the groups information.

A few years ago when the reality TV programs started to hit the air,
there was someone named Jeremy Peevers ( I believe ) and others
who were posting to the aviation newsgroups looking for footage
similar to what Mr. Bogels is showing on his website.

In the rec.aviation.homebuilt, and rec.aviation.rotorcraft groups
(where I generally lurk) they were basically told to **** off by the
majority or regulars who were offended that someone was looking for
death and destruction videos so they could be shown of national TV for
a profit under the guise of entertainment.

I personally asked on numerous times (in the group) if Real TV would be
interested in clear, well lit, sharply focused footage, of a young girl
being decapitated by a helicopter rotor and how much they would be
willing to pay.

That usually shut them up.

They didn't want videos of people out actually enjoying a day at the
airport, with shots of airplanes taking off, flying and landing.

They wanted videos of total destruction, fireballs, cartwheels,
well ........ you get the picture.

The other day Iwan Bogels" crossposted
his message into this set of newsgroups looking for hits to his site.

alt.disasters.aviation, fr.rec.aviation, rec.aviation.military,
rec.aviation.piloting, rec.aviation.soaring

Yesterday he decided to crosspost his message into this set of
newsgroups.

alt.aviation.safety, aus.aviation, rec.aviation.homebuilt,
rec.aviation.ifr, rec.aviation.student

And today he is crossposting to this set of newsgroups

rec.aviation.rotorcraft, rec.aviation.student, rec.models.rc.helicopter

God knows where he will be tomorrow.

I'm certainly not telling anybody what they should or shouldn't look at
on the Web but let's not delude ourselves into believing the pitch from
Mr. Bogels this his site is for educational purposes so that pilots,
etc., can learn from the mistakes of others by watching these videos.

As another poster has stated..... And I am quoting him below.

As it is, you have a freak show and little else.

Mr. Bogel...... In my humble opinion the above quoted statement is
hitting the nail squarly on the head and you can dress your site up any
way you want, and explain anyway you want.... but in my opinion you
are promoting a freak show site and nothing else.

*******************************************

To the Rotorcraft group.

When Mr. Bogel first started crossposting his message he was offering
many video clips including crashes of commercial planes, military
jets., civilian aircraft etc. CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG.

Due to the heavy traffic he went over his bandwidth allocation so now
he is currently just offering one clip.

Since he is in a helicopter newsgroup today, he is offering a
helicopter crash video.

From his website.......

If you have additional material for us, or can point us in the right direction
where to find it, please let us know at

You will note the interesting name for his e-mail addy.

To the group let me repeat myself------ As I have clearly stated
above, I am not telling anyone what they should or shouldn't look
at, or how anyone should act or behave..... The comments above
are strictly my own and the information posted is for the groups
general information.

You can all make up your own mind and voice your own opinions
as you wish about Mr. Bogel and his website.

"Iwan Bogels" wrote in message ...
Hi everybody,

This week I have uploaded a video of a helicopter crash on my website
(www.dappa.nl/crash.htm). Does anyone have a clue about the failure that
caused this crash? It is definately not an engine failure or a tail rotor
failure, but it still looks like a spectacular decend.

For the sensitive viewers: Nobody got hurt, but the helo is a complete write
off.

Iwan Bogels
DAPPA

The NTSB hasn't finished it's report but you can find some preliminary
information he
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...12X00594&key=1

There is also some different information here, but I would consider it
suspect due to the source...
http://www.wnbc.com/news/3269249/detail.html

-lance smith

Dear,

Thanks for your educated guess. I'm impressed with your flight hours ! I
don't even have that many hours in my car.... :-)

Right now I have more than 100 videos of aviation mishaps, accidents and
crashes, and that number is still growing since I have uploaded the website.
As far as I can check the video is still available at
www.dappa.nl/crash.htm. Please check again and let me know when you (or any
others) still have problems viewing the footage via the website. More videos
will follow soon.

Best regards,
Iwan Bogels





"SelwayKid" schreef in bericht
om...
"Iwan Bogels" wrote in message
...
Hi everybody,

This week I have uploaded a video of a helicopter crash on my website
(www.dappa.nl/crash.htm). Does anyone have a clue about the failure that
caused this crash? It is definately not an engine failure or a tail
rotor
failure, but it still looks like a spectacular decend.

For the sensitive viewers: Nobody got hurt, but the helo is a complete
write
off.

Iwan Bogels
DAPPA

Iwan
Of course it's futile to 2nd guess the cause of this accident but its
obviously a mechanical malfunction and my guess its a hydraulic
failure. At first glance it appeared to be tail rotor failure but
given the gyrations, it is more than that. So, my best guess or WAG
(wild ass guess) is a near complete hydraulic failure with resultant
crazy control responses.
I must emphasize I only have 8000 hours in helicopters (13-14,000 in
fixed wing) and very little in the AStar so its only my best guess.
Ol Shy & Bashful
p.s. I'd like to see more on your website but as you know, its down? I
am a proponent on what you are doing for instructional purposes and
accident prevention. If you have another way to access your clips
please let me know?

SEAN,
I DIDN'T MEAN HE ROLLED OFF THE POWER, ONLY THAT HE LOWERED COLLECTIVE
TO FULL DOWN TO COUNTER THE LOSS OF TAIL ROTOR. BUT HE MAY HAVE ROLLED
OFF POWER (WHO KNOWS) BUT THEN HE HAD TO ROLL POWER BACK ON BEFORE HE
PULLED IN POWER(COLLECTIVE) AGAIN TO ARREST HIS DESCENT AS HE NEARED
THE ROOFTOPS. THEN HE GOT THE SEVERE YAW AGAIN. IF HE DIDN'T HAVE THE
POWER BACK ON WHEN HE PULLED COLLECTIVE THE BOTTOM WOULD HAVE FELL OUT
OF THE SHIP VERY QUICKLY AND HE WOULD HAVE PUT THAT SHIP THROUGH THOSE
ROOFS INSTEAD OF ON TOP OF THEM.
REGARDS,
MARK (ANDY IS MY MIDDLE NAME)




Sean Trost wrote:

ummn Andy,
Correct me if I'm wronge but if the helicopter is in an auto then the
rotor is disengaged from the powere source, hence no tourqe to induce
the yaw when the collective is pulled.
all the best
Sean

helicopterandy wrote:

"Ove" wrote in message
...

Maybe a hydraulic failure (lost the pressure) ?

Ove
"Iwan Bogels" wrote in message
...

Hi everybody,

This week I have uploaded a video of a helicopter crash on my website
(www.dappa.nl/crash.htm). Does anyone have a clue about the failure
that
caused this crash? It is definately not an engine failure or a tail
rotor
failure, but it still looks like a spectacular decend.

For the sensitive viewers: Nobody got hurt, but the helo is a complete


write

off.

Iwan Bogels
DAPPA




Sorry for the multiple posts here. But on my first reply I meant to
say after he began the auto he had to pull collective when he neared
the buildings rooftops and he obviously didn't have any tail rotor
thrust to manage that collective pull. Notice how the heli yaws when
he arrests his descent. Read the initial NTSB reports.

Sean,
SORRY IF I CAUSED YOU TO MISUNDERSTAND MY EXPALNATION. I MEANT THE
PILOT OBVIOUSLY LOWERED COLLECTIVE TO FULL DOWN TO STOP THE YAW FROM
TAIL ROTOR FAILURE. NOT FULL AUTO. HE MAY HAVE ACTUALLY ROLLED OFF
THROTTLE TO SPLIT NEEDLES THOUGH I DOUBT IT. HE PROBABLY JUST WENT
FULL DOWN UNTIL NEAR THE ROOFTOPS WHERE HE HAD TO FLAIR AND PULL IN
SOME COLLECTIVE. THAT'S WHEN HE GOT THE BAD YAW DUE TO THE FACT HE WAS
ADDING POWER WITHOUT ANY TAIL ROTOR THRUST.

Sean Trost wrote in message ...
ummn Andy,
Correct me if I'm wronge but if the helicopter is in an auto then the
rotor is disengaged from the powere source, hence no tourqe to induce
the yaw when the collective is pulled.
all the best
Sean

helicopterandy wrote:
"Ove" wrote in message ...

Maybe a hydraulic failure (lost the pressure) ?

Ove
"Iwan Bogels" wrote in message
...

Hi everybody,

This week I have uploaded a video of a helicopter crash on my website
(www.dappa.nl/crash.htm). Does anyone have a clue about the failure that
caused this crash? It is definately not an engine failure or a tail rotor
failure, but it still looks like a spectacular decend.

For the sensitive viewers: Nobody got hurt, but the helo is a complete

write

off.

Iwan Bogels
DAPPA




Sorry for the multiple posts here. But on my first reply I meant to
say after he began the auto he had to pull collective when he neared
the buildings rooftops and he obviously didn't have any tail rotor
thrust to manage that collective pull. Notice how the heli yaws when
he arrests his descent. Read the initial NTSB reports.

OK...let's play CLUE:

AEROSPATIALE helicopter...

COLLECTIVE PULL...

L E F T yaw...

STILL GUESSIN'?

HELLO MARK ANDY
IT REALLY IS TRUE THEN THAT FLYING HELICOPTERS MAKES YOU DEAF?
IF YES, WE SYMPATHISE.
IF NO, STOP SHOUTING.

TONY
WHO CAN'T HEAR TO0 WELL OVER ALL OF THESE ROTORS

In article ,
(helicopterandy) wrote:

SEAN,
I DIDN'T MEAN HE ROLLED OFF THE POWER, ONLY THAT HE LOWERED COLLECTIVE
TO FULL DOWN TO COUNTER THE LOSS OF TAIL ROTOR. BUT HE MAY HAVE ROLLED
OFF POWER (WHO KNOWS) BUT THEN HE HAD TO ROLL POWER BACK ON BEFORE HE
PULLED IN POWER(COLLECTIVE) AGAIN TO ARREST HIS DESCENT AS HE NEARED
THE ROOFTOPS. THEN HE GOT THE SEVERE YAW AGAIN. IF HE DIDN'T HAVE THE
POWER BACK ON WHEN HE PULLED COLLECTIVE THE BOTTOM WOULD HAVE FELL OUT
OF THE SHIP VERY QUICKLY AND HE WOULD HAVE PUT THAT SHIP THROUGH THOSE
ROOFS INSTEAD OF ON TOP OF THEM.
REGARDS,
MARK (ANDY IS MY MIDDLE NAME)




Sean Trost wrote:

ummn Andy,
Correct me if I'm wronge but if the helicopter is in an auto then the
rotor is disengaged from the powere source, hence no tourqe to induce
the yaw when the collective is pulled.
all the best
Sean

helicopterandy wrote:

"Ove" wrote in message
...

Maybe a hydraulic failure (lost the pressure) ?

Ove
"Iwan Bogels" wrote in message
...

Hi everybody,

This week I have uploaded a video of a helicopter crash on my website
(www.dappa.nl/crash.htm). Does anyone have a clue about the failure
that
caused this crash? It is definately not an engine failure or a tail
rotor
failure, but it still looks like a spectacular decend.

For the sensitive viewers: Nobody got hurt, but the helo is a complete


write

off.

Iwan Bogels
DAPPA




Sorry for the multiple posts here. But on my first reply I meant to
say after he began the auto he had to pull collective when he neared
the buildings rooftops and he obviously didn't have any tail rotor
thrust to manage that collective pull. Notice how the heli yaws when
he arrests his descent. Read the initial NTSB reports.






--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

Yes. He was trying to hit some dumb asshole like you and missed.
But he'll get ya next time!

Tony

,
"Iwan Bogels" wrote:

Hi everybody,

This week I have uploaded a video of a helicopter crash on my website
(www.dappa.nl/crash.htm). Does anyone have a clue about the failure that
caused this crash? It is definately not an engine failure or a tail rotor
failure, but it still looks like a spectacular decend.

For the sensitive viewers: Nobody got hurt, but the helo is a complete write
off.

Iwan Bogels
DAPPA




--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

"helicopterandy" wrote in message
om...
SEAN,
I DIDN'T MEAN HE ROLLED OFF THE POWER, ONLY THAT HE LOWERED COLLECTIVE
TO FULL DOWN TO COUNTER THE LOSS OF TAIL ROTOR.

Loweriing collective wouldn't do anything for the tail rotor action. If the
tail rotor DID fail, then the pilot would need to remove the TORQUE whivh
the tail rotor now can't counter, and that's when the rollong power off
would come in handy.


BUT HE MAY HAVE ROLLED
OFF POWER (WHO KNOWS) BUT THEN HE HAD TO ROLL POWER BACK ON BEFORE HE
PULLED IN POWER(COLLECTIVE) AGAIN TO ARREST HIS DESCENT AS HE NEARED
THE ROOFTOPS.

This is a turbine heli. Rolling power on and off "that" quickly isn't going
to happen. I suspect the pilot knows that though.

THEN HE GOT THE SEVERE YAW AGAIN. IF HE DIDN'T HAVE THE
POWER BACK ON WHEN HE PULLED COLLECTIVE THE BOTTOM WOULD HAVE FELL OUT
OF THE SHIP VERY QUICKLY

If he had a tail rotor problem, the LAST thing he'd do is add power.Well
maybe if he liked flying a Waltzer he'd add power, but if he's already cut
power, he woudn't be in a hurry to re-apply it (even if he could)

AND HE WOULD HAVE PUT THAT SHIP THROUGH THOSE
ROOFS INSTEAD OF ON TOP OF THEM.

I think he was simply lucky. I don't think a lot of what followed the
initial departure was down to skill at all, but we all need a bit of luck
now and again.


--
Beav


Please note my E-mail address is "beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com"
(with the obvious changes)

Beavisland now lives at
www.beavisoriginal.co.uk