Anyone Ground-Launched a Russia Glider?

On 08/29/2017 09:09 AM, WB wrote:
On Thursday, August 24, 2017 at 10:05:04 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Hello,

I fly out of Hobbs, NM where we don't have a tow plane. We launch strictly by auto-tow. I am interested in a Russia AC-4B but am not comfortable ground launching from a nose hook. We currently fly Schweizer 1-26's and a 2-33, which has the hook located between the nose and the CG. When you climb high enough you can get a porpoising effect due to the tail stalling & unstalling. I would imagine this only gets worse with a hook in the nose, but I can't find anyone who has done it. The manual indicates that it can be done, but I wonder how much height you have to give up due to the hook location. I am also a little concerned about the angle being too sharp on the nose hook and possibly keeping it from releasing.

Has anyone flown (or seen) a Russia glider ground launched by the nose hook?

Thanks in advance,


Stephen

Please don't ground launch anything by the nose hook. I have a lot of ground launch experience, auto tow and winch, and the very idea of ground launching with the nose hook scares the crap out of me. There have been some horrifying accidents where gliders went into the ground at high speed because the nose hook failed to release.

I do know of one instance of ground launching a Russia. It was an autolaunch situation and there was some slack and subsequent hard jerk on the rope during the initial launch. The Russia over rotated and stalled at low altitude. Busted the glider up. Luckily the pilot did not get severely injured. The glider was repaired and flew again.


So the Russia over-rotated with a nose hook. Wonder what would have
happened with a cg hook? I'll bet an even worse result. This accident
wasn't caused by the nose hook, it was caused by not having the slack
out of the rope prior to launch. And probably lack of a weak link.

On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 1:45:51 PM UTC-6, WB wrote:
On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 10:44:13 PM UTC-5, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Tuesday, August 29, 2017 at 9:09:52 AM UTC-6, WB wrote:
On Thursday, August 24, 2017 at 10:05:04 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Hello,

I fly out of Hobbs, NM where we don't have a tow plane. We launch strictly by auto-tow. I am interested in a Russia AC-4B but am not comfortable ground launching from a nose hook. We currently fly Schweizer 1-26's and a 2-33, which has the hook located between the nose and the CG. When you climb high enough you can get a porpoising effect due to the tail stalling & unstalling. I would imagine this only gets worse with a hook in the nose, but I can't find anyone who has done it. The manual indicates that it can be done, but I wonder how much height you have to give up due to the hook location. I am also a little concerned about the angle being too sharp on the nose hook and possibly keeping it from releasing.

Has anyone flown (or seen) a Russia glider ground launched by the nose hook?

Thanks in advance,


Stephen

Please don't ground launch anything by the nose hook. I have a lot of ground launch experience, auto tow and winch, and the very idea of ground launching with the nose hook scares the crap out of me. There have been some horrifying accidents where gliders went into the ground at high speed because the nose hook failed to release.

I do know of one instance of ground launching a Russia. It was an autolaunch situation and there was some slack and subsequent hard jerk on the rope during the initial launch. The Russia over rotated and stalled at low altitude. Busted the glider up. Luckily the pilot did not get severely injured. The glider was repaired and flew again.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...Final&IType=LA


Hi Frank,

Thanks for posting the link to the NTSB report. Confirmed what I remembered. My club trained that Russia pilot on ground launch with a typical 2:1 pulley system. During the accident flight, he was testing a 3:1 advantage pulley setup. Pretty much a hard landing and ground loop after the pitch up and stall.

Wally,

I had looked for a report years ago and never found one, so was surprised to find it now. At the time I was vendor relations contact for the EAA Regional at Longmont. Tried to get Bill Ard to show up. We had a member with a Russia and we put in on display with pictures of Brad Hill's kit build effort. Only got second hand information that someone in Wyoming had tried to ground launch and cart-wheeled. We later heard the glider would be repaired, which Applebay Aviation did. I spoke with the current owner who gave me some follow-up about the repairs, but he was dealing with his daughter's situation in Houston, so we'll catch up later. I agree with all that if a hook can't back release, no ground launching. I have winched some gliders with nose and chin hooks, but all could back release, 2-33, 2-32, 1-26, 1-34, HP-14, and Jantar Std 2 (where the hook was rotated to prevent back release at 700ft instead of 1500ft). Same models that could be fitted with CG hooks did much better.

Frank

On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 5:47:02 PM UTC-6, kinsell wrote:
On 08/29/2017 09:09 AM, WB wrote:
On Thursday, August 24, 2017 at 10:05:04 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Hello,

I fly out of Hobbs, NM where we don't have a tow plane. We launch strictly by auto-tow. I am interested in a Russia AC-4B but am not comfortable ground launching from a nose hook. We currently fly Schweizer 1-26's and a 2-33, which has the hook located between the nose and the CG. When you climb high enough you can get a porpoising effect due to the tail stalling & unstalling. I would imagine this only gets worse with a hook in the nose, but I can't find anyone who has done it. The manual indicates that it can be done, but I wonder how much height you have to give up due to the hook location. I am also a little concerned about the angle being too sharp on the nose hook and possibly keeping it from releasing.

Has anyone flown (or seen) a Russia glider ground launched by the nose hook?

Thanks in advance,


Stephen

Please don't ground launch anything by the nose hook. I have a lot of ground launch experience, auto tow and winch, and the very idea of ground launching with the nose hook scares the crap out of me. There have been some horrifying accidents where gliders went into the ground at high speed because the nose hook failed to release.

I do know of one instance of ground launching a Russia. It was an autolaunch situation and there was some slack and subsequent hard jerk on the rope during the initial launch. The Russia over rotated and stalled at low altitude. Busted the glider up. Luckily the pilot did not get severely injured. The glider was repaired and flew again.


So the Russia over-rotated with a nose hook. Wonder what would have
happened with a cg hook? I'll bet an even worse result. This accident
wasn't caused by the nose hook, it was caused by not having the slack
out of the rope prior to launch. And probably lack of a weak link.

Dave,

You may be right about that. We don't know the type of rope involved, but stretchy stuff can catapult a light glider pretty high into the air. I witnessed exactly this when the nose wheel of a light glider got stuck in the soft turf and an inexperienced driver stretched a fairly short piece of rope with the pickup. Once the nose released, the glider was 50-75 feet in the air in the blink of an eye. The intent was just to do a ground run to check controls and W&B (recommended procedure for type).

Frank

Stephen,

I was interested by your query. I looked forward to reading authorative,
first hand experience of ground launching the Russia glider but most of the
replies give general feedback about ground launching gliders using aerotow
nose hooks. I offer comments based upon my limited experience.

The Midland Gliding Club had a Kenilworth Me7 for a few years which was
routinely winch launched. This was the name under which the Russia was
sold in the UK. It only had a compromise hook - with back release. Is
this what is called a chin hook in the USA? (A compromise hook is fitted a
little forward of the position for a CofG hook.)

I do not know what type of hook is fitted to the Russia gliders sold in the
USA. If, unlike the Me7, the Russia AC-4B only has an aerotow nose hook I
cannot offer any advice.

If the Russia has a compromise hook you may wish to contact the MGC CFI via
the web site for authoritative guidance -
http://www.midlandgliding.club/your-committee/.

I had a few flights in the Me7. From memory the flight manual gave a
rather narrow winch launch speed range of 56kts to 60kts. I found gentle
launches at 56kts or a little less to be uneventful with only a slight
tendency to porpoise. The launch height would be typically 200ft less than
was achieved in a Schleicher ASK23 (with CofG hook). With faster launches
I always ended up with porpoising towards the top of the launch which could
become uncomfortable at 60kts. Perhaps with training or more experience I
could have controlled the porpoising better without unduely compromising
the launch height. My weight with parachute was 165lbs and the winch
launching characteristics could be different for heavier or lighter pilots.


The controls were very light, but nicely co-ordinated. There was no
tendency to over-rotate during the initial part of the launch, but I
imagine that a pilot used to the controls of a heavy glider might “over
control� the Me7.

Because of its very light weight, the effect on the Me7 of excessive power
or snatching of the cable would be greater than on heavier gliders. I
would have been wary if the launch crew were inexperienced or not fully
briefed on the launch speed required for the Me7.

I remember reading that a modification was available for the Russia / Me7
to add a CofG hook, but I would expect modified gliders to be rare.

If you particularly want a Russia glider (with a compromise hook), it can
be successfully ground launched. However the name given to the type of
hook gives a clue to its launch charcteristics - it is not optimised for
ground launching or for aerotowing.

At 03:04 25 August 2017, wrote:
Hello,

I fly out of Hobbs, NM where we don't have a tow plane. We launch
strictly=
by auto-tow. I am interested in a Russia AC-4B but am not comfortable
gro=
und launching from a nose hook. We currently fly Schweizer 1-26's and a
2-=
33, which has the hook located between the nose and the CG. When you
climb=
high enough you can get a porpoising effect due to the tail stalling &
uns=
talling. I would imagine this only gets worse with a hook in the nose,
but=
I can't find anyone who has done it. The manual indicates that it can
be
=
done, but I wonder how much height you have to give up due to the hook
loca=
tion. I am also a little concerned about the angle being too sharp on
the
=
nose hook and possibly keeping it from releasing.

Has anyone flown (or seen) a Russia glider ground launched by the nose
hook=
?

Thanks in advance,


Stephen

On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 6:47:02 PM UTC-5, kinsell wrote:
On 08/29/2017 09:09 AM, WB wrote:
On Thursday, August 24, 2017 at 10:05:04 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Hello,

I fly out of Hobbs, NM where we don't have a tow plane. We launch strictly by auto-tow. I am interested in a Russia AC-4B but am not comfortable ground launching from a nose hook. We currently fly Schweizer 1-26's and a 2-33, which has the hook located between the nose and the CG. When you climb high enough you can get a porpoising effect due to the tail stalling & unstalling. I would imagine this only gets worse with a hook in the nose, but I can't find anyone who has done it. The manual indicates that it can be done, but I wonder how much height you have to give up due to the hook location. I am also a little concerned about the angle being too sharp on the nose hook and possibly keeping it from releasing.

Has anyone flown (or seen) a Russia glider ground launched by the nose hook?

Thanks in advance,


Stephen

Please don't ground launch anything by the nose hook. I have a lot of ground launch experience, auto tow and winch, and the very idea of ground launching with the nose hook scares the crap out of me. There have been some horrifying accidents where gliders went into the ground at high speed because the nose hook failed to release.

I do know of one instance of ground launching a Russia. It was an autolaunch situation and there was some slack and subsequent hard jerk on the rope during the initial launch. The Russia over rotated and stalled at low altitude. Busted the glider up. Luckily the pilot did not get severely injured. The glider was repaired and flew again.


So the Russia over-rotated with a nose hook. Wonder what would have
happened with a cg hook? I'll bet an even worse result. This accident
wasn't caused by the nose hook, it was caused by not having the slack
out of the rope prior to launch. And probably lack of a weak link.

I am pretty sure the accident Russia had a CG hook.

On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 6:04:57 PM UTC-5, WB wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 6:47:02 PM UTC-5, kinsell wrote:
On 08/29/2017 09:09 AM, WB wrote:
On Thursday, August 24, 2017 at 10:05:04 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Hello,

I fly out of Hobbs, NM where we don't have a tow plane. We launch strictly by auto-tow. I am interested in a Russia AC-4B but am not comfortable ground launching from a nose hook. We currently fly Schweizer 1-26's and a 2-33, which has the hook located between the nose and the CG. When you climb high enough you can get a porpoising effect due to the tail stalling & unstalling. I would imagine this only gets worse with a hook in the nose, but I can't find anyone who has done it. The manual indicates that it can be done, but I wonder how much height you have to give up due to the hook location. I am also a little concerned about the angle being too sharp on the nose hook and possibly keeping it from releasing.

Has anyone flown (or seen) a Russia glider ground launched by the nose hook?

Thanks in advance,


Stephen

Please don't ground launch anything by the nose hook. I have a lot of ground launch experience, auto tow and winch, and the very idea of ground launching with the nose hook scares the crap out of me. There have been some horrifying accidents where gliders went into the ground at high speed because the nose hook failed to release.

I do know of one instance of ground launching a Russia. It was an autolaunch situation and there was some slack and subsequent hard jerk on the rope during the initial launch. The Russia over rotated and stalled at low altitude. Busted the glider up. Luckily the pilot did not get severely injured. The glider was repaired and flew again.


So the Russia over-rotated with a nose hook. Wonder what would have
happened with a cg hook? I'll bet an even worse result. This accident
wasn't caused by the nose hook, it was caused by not having the slack
out of the rope prior to launch. And probably lack of a weak link.

I am pretty sure the accident Russia had a CG hook.

Or the "chin" hook.