Does USA need a Club Class?

Just checked the entry list for Parowan, Tim's idea would eliminate 50
pilots out of the 74 that wish to fly the sports nationals this year.
Is this what we want? Sports class has been very successful because you
come to the contest with what you have, your ship and your talents.
Over the years there has been suggestions to not allow pilots with
diamond badges or not allow certain ships. Let's leave it alone, it's
working real fine.
Haven't we plowed this ground before?
JJ

Couldn't have said the way things could be better myself. If you do not
like having spent $100k+ only to get beaten by KS, 7V, etc. in whatever
"modern" class you want to fly in, then Trade-"Down" to a $30K LS-4 or
a $14K Std Cirrus, enjoy a few non-soaring vacations with the
proceeeds, and get beaten by the very talented younger crowd of racers
who drive their lowly "club class" ships. But this would only be truly
possible if there were a true or modified "club class" contests in the
U.S.A.

I would further echo Bob Fidler's comments on how we should be racing
at home like we race in international competitions. IMHO, we are
setting our teams up for overall failure if we expect "modern" glider
guiders to adapt from their ASW-Wahtever to a Std Libelle in the three
weeks of a WGC. "Club Class" flying is a particular skill that can be
gained in this country. I for one, from personal experience, would
prefer that we send pilots to world competitions that are put in the
position to excel, rather than merely compete for the honor of it.
Lucky for me, I actually was a "club class" pilot when I went to worlds
last year.

This comes from a VERY committed sports/club class pilot who owns a
$14K Std. Libelle and who would love to stay in my Libelle for many,
many years to come. I fly sports class regionals for the experience in
my class and to share my growing knowledge with other pilots. I fly
sports class nationals because that is the only thing my $14K is
sometimes competitive in.

While I may be a little above-average in my soaring and racing skills,
my win at Elmira's Sports Class Nats in 2003 was in part because I
happened to own one of the better ships for the conditions that existed
there during that contest period. Should luck, $'s, planning or the
combination of all three in choice of ship determine who wins in a
"fair" and "handicapped" contest?

The fiction that handicaps can even out performance over the wide range
of soaring conditions that US Sport Class are held in (i.e. Albert Lea,
Mifflin, Minden, Ionia, Elmira, etc.) is just that ... fiction. Ask
anyone who has flown a pure ridge day at Mifflin whether a dry ASW-27
is going to be quite a bit quicker than than a Libelle. Or how about if
that next western thermal on any particular day is always 42:1 away and
you are in a 35:1 ship? Yeah that pilot might have been competitive on
most days, but that one day just cost him or her any chance on that
particular day no matter how well they flew their fairly "handicapped"
ship.

If somebody honestly, in detail, and without privately smirking, can
explain to me how my Std Libelle is going to be equally competitive in
all expected wx conditions as a flapped ship (i.e. LS-3 to ASW-27) in
the Western thermals of Parowan this June, I would love to hear it!!!

In Europe, Sports Class AND Club Class co-exist just fine - even in
small countries like Norway, for instance. The same can be made to work
here. Somebody just has to step up and prove the concept out by holding
a few well located Club Class Events. Then of course the powers that be
have to approve it.

Oh yeah... one more thing... club class is fun!!! It is fun to try and
outperform the x-c speeds acheived by the greats of our sport who cut
their teeth in "club class" ships inthe late 60's and early 70's. And
the competition who is flying "club class" contests in Europe and at
the world level will stack up with anyone in any other "real" class -
and they fly libelles, cirri, LS-4's, etc. - Willingly!!!

Club class should at least be given a full and honest chance in the
U.S.

Flame Shield to full power...

Tim S. McAllister "EY"
U.S. Club Class Team, 2004 WGC Elverum, Norway


Tim Mara wrote: SNIP

At 02:30 05 April 2005, wrote:
Just checked the entry list for Parowan, Tim's idea
would eliminate 50
pilots out of the 74 that wish to fly the sports nationals
this year.
Is this what we want?

I've been waiting for this moment...

I agree with JJ.

The last thing we need is a set of rules changes that
up the odds of contests being under-subscribed (and
uneconomic to run).

If we are worried about new pilots being excluded from
popular Regionals, or being crushed by better pilots
who are 'down-classing', we could consider doing reverse
seeding for entry in sports class for Regionals (as
was done at Parowan last year), and maybe even parallel
scoring based on an additional handicap tied to each
pilot's seeding (like golf).

9B

If your premise is 'you can never properly handicap
such
a field' then you needn't say any more. No handicap
system will satisfy you.

Personally, I like the handicapping system, but think
it doesn't give enough distinction to discourage those
flying higher performance aircraft. I don't see 2-33s
or L-13s or PW-2s entered in the Sports Class. They
have no class to compete in, because the handicaps
need to be further apart.

If we want to see newbies REALLY encouraged to race,
we should REALLY encourage low performance aircraft.
Something you can just barely do a silver badge in
comfortably...

The only reason the 15meter, 18meter, standard and
world class guys don't win Sports class instead is
pride.
If you cancelled all the other classes at the last
second at some contest, the Nimbus would top the Sport's
class leader board...

At 23:00 04 April 2005, Tim Mara wrote:
the problem with this handicapping is that you still
have PW5's and Nimbus's
in the same class......you can never properly handicap
such a
field......and, there already is a class for the PW5
(World class) and one
for the Nimbus (Open class) and 126's have their own
class too.....
a small restriction to who can fly what will go a long
way towards allowing
everyone to fly a 100K, 200K or 300K on the same day....and,
like the FAI
classes, even see another glider during the day. Not
simply fly alone and to
wherever and have no clue how they are doing, or learn
by following others
of 'like' performance
tim
'M B' wrote in message
...
I recommended that the CH handicaps simply
be squared for Sports class.

The PW-2 with 2.15 becomes 4.62
The Nimbus 3DM with .75 becomes .56

1-26 1.62 2.62
2-33 1.84 3.38
L-13 1.46 2.13
G103 1.15 1.32
ASW20 0.90 0.81

So the Nimbus would need to go 8.2 times faster (or
further or whatever) to beat the PW-2 driver.

This would favor the lower performance ships. Really,
isn't the importance of Sports Class to make it distinct?
I think squaring the handicap would make it much more
insteresting and distinct.

And the PW-2 guy doing a 30km task vs. the Nimbus
guy
with
a 250km task sounds like a real race to me!

And a 2-33 vs an ASW-20 SHOULD get about a 4:1 advantage,
instead of a 2:1 advantage.

I'd like to see this scoring at our fun meet coming
up...

As far as the other classes, I'm not sure how the
'standard' class has lived so long. Also, every contest
seems to be a 'seniors' contest anyway, so dunno about
that
one :P

A 2-place contest class? Sports and open-unlimited
should be enough for this.

Finally, who cares about motorglider class? For the
flying portion of the contest, isn't it just the 'fixed
ballast' class?
These guys say 'it's just a glider' so I'd like to
see it just treated that way. I'm aware of the subtlety
of 'landouts' but I
think there is an elegant way to even the playing
field
for this
(some penalty for landout, doubled for engine use).

So those are four I'm not so sure about.

Sports, 15 meter, and open-unlimited seem to be the
three
real viable ones. With the squared handicap, lowest
performers
will tend to Sports, the tilters and flappers that
qualify will
go 15-meter, and the sexy big glass in open.

I think every successful multiclass contest has at
least two of these three classes, right? The rest
seem to be very 'specialty' classes. Nothing wrong
with that, except it gets a little harder to get throngs
motivated for so many 'class' competitions

At 17:00 04 April 2005, wrote:

Tim Mara wrote:
we don't need another class...we just need to fix
the one we
have.....

I proposed years ago that we modify the Sports class
'more or less'
to the
very successful European Club Class (they actually
have two versions
there
for standard class gliders and 15 meter gliders called
the 'racing
class)
My (and others) suggestion was to eliminate gliders
from the Sports
class
that already had a 'competitive' class of their own....
Doing this I suggested the sports class would 'disallow'
any 'current

production' competition glider or variation thereof,
from Sports
class
competition.
Meaning..if you have a 'racing' glider that is of
a series currently
being
produced you'd have to fly it in the respective class
it was designed
for
(15M, Standard, open and yes, world class) . If you
have a glider
that has
been surpassed by more competitive models from the
manufacturer,then
it
could be handicapped and allowed into sports class...
The main idea
with
this was to allow closer handicapping and allow older
gliders (lower
cost)
to fly with their pilots competitively and let them
fly in called
tasks
rather than having to design new scoring systems to
meet the broadest
array
of handicaps.
The other change to sports class I suggested was that
no one would be

allowed to fly in a sports class 'National' contest,
that had not
participated in a Sports class regional contest within
the preceding
3
years, thus keeping the class 'pure' .....since it
seems pilots who
otherwise snub their noses at sports class seem to
rush top attend
only when
there is a title at stake....and then of course as
we see it today,
show up
in droves to fly their latest ship...
I never got any flack from these proposals except
of course from
those who
were already fling the latest and greatest ships......but
even most
of them
admitted in the past it would be beneficial to promoting
the sports
class
and would allow owners on lesser budgets with older
gliders a place
to
compete where they could more or less evenly match
themselves and
their
ships and bring more into the sport or glider racing..which
can't be
bad for
any of us...
anyway.my 2c are there again.....
tim

--
Wings & Wheels
www.wingsandwheels.com


Can't argue with any of that, Tim, but where are you
going to draw the
line? The V1's and 20's are still quite potent machines.
How about the
Genesis, its out of production. I do like your proposal
to only allow
real sports pilots to compete, but then it wouldn't
be all that hard to
log a sports regionals every 3 years just to keep ones
options open.
What I see is a lot of local pilots will fly sports
nats when they are
close and the other nationals when they are close.
That's what I do and
kind-a like it that way.

JJ


Mark J. Boyd





Mark J. Boyd

M B wrote:


The only reason the 15meter, 18meter, standard and
world class guys don't win Sports class instead is
pride.
If you cancelled all the other classes at the last
second at some contest, the Nimbus would top the Sport's
class leader board...

According to a friend of mine who has flown his Nimbus in Sports class,
it would be a poor choice. I think he suggested an LS4 would be much
better. Since he is a good contest pilot and did win a Sports Class
Nationals in an LS4, I tend to believe him.

The handicaps do work reasonably well, in my experience, meaning the
winners are generally better pilots than the losers. There is more
"scatter" in the results, of course, because the weather is not always
uniform enough.
--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

An excellent reasoned response!

Perhaps it IS time for the US to get serious and join other countries in
FAI Club Class competition.

I have yet to hear a reason not to.

Mike


"Tim" wrote in message
oups.com...
Couldn't have said the way things could be better myself. If you do not
like having spent $100k+ only to get beaten by KS, 7V, etc. in whatever
"modern" class you want to fly in, then Trade-"Down" to a $30K LS-4 or
a $14K Std Cirrus, enjoy a few non-soaring vacations with the
proceeeds, and get beaten by the very talented younger crowd of racers
who drive their lowly "club class" ships. But this would only be truly
possible if there were a true or modified "club class" contests in the
U.S.A.

I would further echo Bob Fidler's comments on how we should be racing
at home like we race in international competitions. IMHO, we are
setting our teams up for overall failure if we expect "modern" glider
guiders to adapt from their ASW-Wahtever to a Std Libelle in the three
weeks of a WGC. "Club Class" flying is a particular skill that can be
gained in this country. I for one, from personal experience, would
prefer that we send pilots to world competitions that are put in the
position to excel, rather than merely compete for the honor of it.
Lucky for me, I actually was a "club class" pilot when I went to worlds
last year.

This comes from a VERY committed sports/club class pilot who owns a
$14K Std. Libelle and who would love to stay in my Libelle for many,
many years to come. I fly sports class regionals for the experience in
my class and to share my growing knowledge with other pilots. I fly
sports class nationals because that is the only thing my $14K is
sometimes competitive in.

While I may be a little above-average in my soaring and racing skills,
my win at Elmira's Sports Class Nats in 2003 was in part because I
happened to own one of the better ships for the conditions that existed
there during that contest period. Should luck, $'s, planning or the
combination of all three in choice of ship determine who wins in a
"fair" and "handicapped" contest?

The fiction that handicaps can even out performance over the wide range
of soaring conditions that US Sport Class are held in (i.e. Albert Lea,
Mifflin, Minden, Ionia, Elmira, etc.) is just that ... fiction. Ask
anyone who has flown a pure ridge day at Mifflin whether a dry ASW-27
is going to be quite a bit quicker than than a Libelle. Or how about if
that next western thermal on any particular day is always 42:1 away and
you are in a 35:1 ship? Yeah that pilot might have been competitive on
most days, but that one day just cost him or her any chance on that
particular day no matter how well they flew their fairly "handicapped"
ship.

If somebody honestly, in detail, and without privately smirking, can
explain to me how my Std Libelle is going to be equally competitive in
all expected wx conditions as a flapped ship (i.e. LS-3 to ASW-27) in
the Western thermals of Parowan this June, I would love to hear it!!!

In Europe, Sports Class AND Club Class co-exist just fine - even in
small countries like Norway, for instance. The same can be made to work
here. Somebody just has to step up and prove the concept out by holding
a few well located Club Class Events. Then of course the powers that be
have to approve it.

Oh yeah... one more thing... club class is fun!!! It is fun to try and
outperform the x-c speeds acheived by the greats of our sport who cut
their teeth in "club class" ships inthe late 60's and early 70's. And
the competition who is flying "club class" contests in Europe and at
the world level will stack up with anyone in any other "real" class -
and they fly libelles, cirri, LS-4's, etc. - Willingly!!!

Club class should at least be given a full and honest chance in the
U.S.

Flame Shield to full power...

Tim S. McAllister "EY"
U.S. Club Class Team, 2004 WGC Elverum, Norway


Tim Mara wrote: SNIP

Tim wrote:
Couldn't have said the way things could be better myself. If you do
not
like having spent $100k+ only to get beaten by KS, 7V, etc. in
whatever
"modern" class you want to fly in, then Trade-"Down" to a $30K LS-4
or
a $14K Std Cirrus, enjoy a few non-soaring vacations with the
proceeeds, and get beaten by the very talented younger crowd of
racers
who drive their lowly "club class" ships. But this would only be
truly
possible if there were a true or modified "club class" contests in
the
U.S.A.

I would further echo Bob Fidler's comments on how we should be racing
at home like we race in international competitions. IMHO, we are
setting our teams up for overall failure if we expect "modern" glider
guiders to adapt from their ASW-Wahtever to a Std Libelle in the
three
weeks of a WGC. "Club Class" flying is a particular skill that can be
gained in this country. I for one, from personal experience, would
prefer that we send pilots to world competitions that are put in the
position to excel, rather than merely compete for the honor of it.
Lucky for me, I actually was a "club class" pilot when I went to
worlds
last year.

This comes from a VERY committed sports/club class pilot who owns a
$14K Std. Libelle and who would love to stay in my Libelle for many,
many years to come. I fly sports class regionals for the experience
in
my class and to share my growing knowledge with other pilots. I fly
sports class nationals because that is the only thing my $14K is
sometimes competitive in.

While I may be a little above-average in my soaring and racing
skills,
my win at Elmira's Sports Class Nats in 2003 was in part because I
happened to own one of the better ships for the conditions that
existed
there during that contest period. Should luck, $'s, planning or the
combination of all three in choice of ship determine who wins in a
"fair" and "handicapped" contest?

The fiction that handicaps can even out performance over the wide
range
of soaring conditions that US Sport Class are held in (i.e. Albert
Lea,
Mifflin, Minden, Ionia, Elmira, etc.) is just that ... fiction. Ask
anyone who has flown a pure ridge day at Mifflin whether a dry ASW-27
is going to be quite a bit quicker than than a Libelle. Or how about
if
that next western thermal on any particular day is always 42:1 away
and
you are in a 35:1 ship? Yeah that pilot might have been competitive
on
most days, but that one day just cost him or her any chance on that
particular day no matter how well they flew their fairly
"handicapped"
ship.

If somebody honestly, in detail, and without privately smirking, can
explain to me how my Std Libelle is going to be equally competitive
in
all expected wx conditions as a flapped ship (i.e. LS-3 to ASW-27) in
the Western thermals of Parowan this June, I would love to hear it!!!

In Europe, Sports Class AND Club Class co-exist just fine - even in
small countries like Norway, for instance. The same can be made to
work
here. Somebody just has to step up and prove the concept out by
holding
a few well located Club Class Events. Then of course the powers that
be
have to approve it.

Oh yeah... one more thing... club class is fun!!! It is fun to try
and
outperform the x-c speeds acheived by the greats of our sport who cut
their teeth in "club class" ships inthe late 60's and early 70's. And
the competition who is flying "club class" contests in Europe and at
the world level will stack up with anyone in any other "real" class -
and they fly libelles, cirri, LS-4's, etc. - Willingly!!!

Club class should at least be given a full and honest chance in the
U.S.

Flame Shield to full power...

Tim S. McAllister "EY"
U.S. Club Class Team, 2004 WGC Elverum, Norway


Tim Mara wrote: SNIP

Gotta disagree just a bit with EY. Recent history shows that you need a
LOW performance glider to excel in the Sports Class.
Why? Because it lets the guy with a 1.0 or higher handicap pick the
sweet part of the task area while the .9 guys are forced to fly out of
the best area to use up task time. Fly upwind/downwind as is usual when
you have a choice and Dave Stevenson will kill you every single day in
the KA6.

This "modern" pilot seemed to do OK when moving to Club at the Worlds.

The success that Tim has had proves, in my opinion, that what we have
works.

The sad part is that not all that many serious contenders for US Team
slots are participating at the national level. I'd estimate about 6 at
Ionia last year with a couple gone to the WGC at the time. When more
top pilots realize this is a way to the "big show",the qualitiy of the
team will improve.
Entries at the Sports Nats is more about the popularity of the site
than other issues, in my opinion. Have Iris and Karl run the contest,
with all they do to make it fun, and it will fill up anywhere, with
somebody crying cause they aren't good enough to get in.

We need to not mess up what we have which is a place for everybody to
fly. As Dick Johnson calls it- the entry and exit class. Run what you
brung works and handicapping anomolies are weeded out By the RC led by
Dave Cole.
When we get Sports to a full contest regularly with 1/2 the field
between .95 and 1.03, we should think about creating a divided class,
but not until then.
Just my opinion.
UH- RC Chair, WGC Club team '01, '02

We have a few real sports class pilots that only fly that class, but
they are definitely the minority. Those of us who are serious about
racing, have and will continue to buy the most performance we can
afford. Should we exclude the vast majority, simply because we choose
to fly newer equipment? I think, no. Parowan this year has 2/3 newer
stuff and 1/3 older stuff. I say, leave it alone.

Oh, one more thing, the numbers have been scrubbed down for over 30
years, now. They're not perfect, but they represent the best that can
be done. Truth is, the open class ship can't win unless nobody else
makes it home. The 1-26 can't fight any wind over 10 knots. Guess what?
these two extremes don't come any more.
JJ

not necessarily.......it may just mean that the 50 you eliminated will be
replaced with the 50 who don't waste their time and money to be fodder for
the 50 with the latest and greatest ships....
and...maybe the 50 you might eliminate will still participate, but in a true
"club (Sports) class ship..... The Europeans sure seem to be able to fill
these classes with "club class" gliders......heck, I've even offered to loan
out gliders myself for the sports class contests....JJ, I even offered one
to you when the Sports class nationals were in Elmira.....remember?
tim

wrote in message
oups.com...
Just checked the entry list for Parowan, Tim's idea would eliminate 50
pilots out of the 74 that wish to fly the sports nationals this year.
Is this what we want? Sports class has been very successful because you
come to the contest with what you have, your ship and your talents.
Over the years there has been suggestions to not allow pilots with
diamond badges or not allow certain ships. Let's leave it alone, it's
working real fine.
Haven't we plowed this ground before?
JJ

I have considered entering "Sports Class" contests with my HP-14; however,
it seems like a useless effort considering the ships which I would be
competing against.

Yes, I know that entering would make me a better pilot; however, any week
dedicated to flying with other good pilots will do that.


"Tim Mara" wrote in message
...
not necessarily.......it may just mean that the 50 you eliminated will be
replaced with the 50 who don't waste their time and money to be fodder for
the 50 with the latest and greatest ships....
and...maybe the 50 you might eliminate will still participate, but in a
true
"club (Sports) class ship..... The Europeans sure seem to be able to fill
these classes with "club class" gliders......heck, I've even offered to
loan
out gliders myself for the sports class contests....JJ, I even offered one
to you when the Sports class nationals were in Elmira.....remember?
tim

wrote in message
oups.com...
Just checked the entry list for Parowan, Tim's idea would eliminate 50
pilots out of the 74 that wish to fly the sports nationals this year.
Is this what we want? Sports class has been very successful because you
come to the contest with what you have, your ship and your talents.
Over the years there has been suggestions to not allow pilots with
diamond badges or not allow certain ships. Let's leave it alone, it's
working real fine.
Haven't we plowed this ground before?
JJ