Pitch vs. trim in flight phases

In rec.aviation.piloting Tina wrote:
Perhaps the difference between the MSFS and reality is the notion of
adjusting trim to take pressure off the yoke is one of those 'it
doesn't matter in simulated flight' issues.

I find the yoke pressure in MSFS to be a grossly inaccurate simulation.

Most all game yokes are center loaded with springs, which means the
only time there is zero yoke pressure is when the yoke is centered.

As all real pilots know, zero yoke pressure can occure over most, if
not all, of the the yoke travel on a real airplane.

Stable slow flight at the edge of a stall is probably the best example.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

Mxsmanic wrote:
In a small GA aircraft, in which phases of flight will you normally use mostly trim to adjust pitch, and in which phases will you normally mostly use
the yoke?

Good question for r.a.s.

You don't want to use the trim to adjust pitch, just to relieve the
control pressure. Electronic trim switches mounted to the yoke are a
bad habit waiting to happen; they're disabled in a lot of training
aircraft. Always remember "Pitch, power, trim."

The Airplane Flying Handbook, FAA-H-8083-3A, states:
"The pilot must avoid using the trim to establish or correct airplane
attitude. The airplane attitude must be established and held first, then
control pressures trimmed out so that the airplane will maintain the
desired attitude in 'hands off' flight. Attempting to 'fly the airplane
with trim tabs' is a common fault in basic flying technique even among
experienced pilots."

It's important for the pilot to feel the elevator pressure whereas with
a trim tab you're delegating that to mechanical authority.

Also, if you get out of the habit of knowing where your trim is set, you
increase the likelihood of approaching an elevator trim stall in a
missed approach or go-around. This can be demonstrated pretty well in
MSFS2004--I think in the Mooney--by adjusting the elevator trim as if
you were in full-flaps landing configuration and then adding full power;
back-elevator trim will cause a radical nose-up pitch, exceeding the
critical angle of attack. To avoid elevator trim stall the pilot must
exert a great deal of forward pressure on the nose -and- retrim the
airplane, and it has to be brisk and smooth. Whether by hand or
electric motor, controlling it by trim is too slow.

-c

Dudley Henriques writes:

You adjust pitch and hold that pitch, then trim. The general "rule" is
nose attitude, adjust power, trim the airplane.

OK, I will try that.

'So, you consider a correct answer to be "noise"?'

ANY response to MX and the other trolls who are rapidly destroying this
group is noise...


"Nomen Nescio" wrote in message
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From:

Thanks for contributing so many lines to the noise level.
"If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem".

So, you consider a correct answer to be "noise"?
Get a life.


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Tina writes:

Perhaps the difference between the MSFS and reality is the notion of
adjusting trim to take pressure off the yoke is one of those 'it
doesn't matter in simulated flight' issues.

Some controls for use with the sim, including the Saitek X52 joystick that I
have, are spring loaded, and MSFS behaves in such a way that you must maintain
pressure against the springs if the aircraft isn't properly trimmed. It's not
the same as control pressure, but it has much the same effect, although the
spring resistance isn't correlated with control surface positions as precisely
as a real yoke would be. Some airliners use springs for exactly the same
purpose, so it can't be that far from reality.

In the sim I trim until I don't have to hold the joystick. The joystick
position doesn't actually change, of course, but the springs give the same
general idea, and I don't think it is creating any bad habits.

The Cessna models I have seem to have a lot more travel in the trim adjustment
than the Baron or Bonanza. I don't know if this is a peculiarity of the sim
models of these aircraft or whether it actually reflects differences among the
real aircraft.

On May 16, 9:55 am, gatt wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote:
In a small GA aircraft, in which phases of flight will you normally use mostly trim to adjust pitch, and in which phases will you normally mostly use
the yoke?

Good question for r.a.s.

You don't want to use the trim to adjust pitch, just to relieve the
control pressure. Electronic trim switches mounted to the yoke are a
bad habit waiting to happen; they're disabled in a lot of training
aircraft. Always remember "Pitch, power, trim."

The Airplane Flying Handbook, FAA-H-8083-3A, states:
"The pilot must avoid using the trim to establish or correct airplane
attitude. The airplane attitude must be established and held first, then
control pressures trimmed out so that the airplane will maintain the
desired attitude in 'hands off' flight. Attempting to 'fly the airplane
with trim tabs' is a common fault in basic flying technique even among
experienced pilots."

It's important for the pilot to feel the elevator pressure whereas with
a trim tab you're delegating that to mechanical authority.

Also, if you get out of the habit of knowing where your trim is set, you
increase the likelihood of approaching an elevator trim stall in a
missed approach or go-around. This can be demonstrated pretty well in
MSFS2004--I think in the Mooney--by adjusting the elevator trim as if
you were in full-flaps landing configuration and then adding full power;
back-elevator trim will cause a radical nose-up pitch, exceeding the
critical angle of attack. To avoid elevator trim stall the pilot must
exert a great deal of forward pressure on the nose -and- retrim the
airplane, and it has to be brisk and smooth. Whether by hand or
electric motor, controlling it by trim is too slow.
-c

Quick question, (it's been awhile since I've piloted)
is the trim (Cessna 152) in the center, right of the
pilot, and has zero mark to be set null in pre-flight?

Personally I had real friggin hassle with trim. I'd get
to 4000' set a course for x-country, maybe an hour
away, set cruise, then touch-up trim, to relieve yoke
control. Well it never really worked for me.
As soon as I thought I had it right, by Descent Indicator
(no jokes guys, women of the opposite sex might be lurkin)
would start wandering off zero.
My habit became, set Trim slightly down and use my
pinky pressure back on the yoke to keep my Descent
Indicator at zero, with an occasional glance so I could
enjoy the view and work nav.
Ken
PS: Kens Rule: Use your pinky to stop being InDescent,
and use the rest of your fingers anyway you want.

On May 16, 10:32*am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Dudley Henriques writes:
You adjust pitch and hold that pitch, then trim. The general "rule" is
nose attitude, adjust power, trim the airplane.

OK, I will try that.

I'm not sure how you can without a force feedback joy stick. You use
the trim to remove pressure from the yoke.

-Robert

wrote in message
...
On May 16, 1:10 am, Nomen Nescio wrote:
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Juevie bull**** snipped
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Thanks for contributing so many lines to the noise level.
"If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem".


That was an ounce of prevention hoping to avoid the several pounds of cure
that will certainly follow.

On May 17, 5:51*am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:
On May 16, 9:55 am, gatt wrote:





Mxsmanic wrote:
In a small GA aircraft, in which phases of flight will you normally use mostly trim to adjust pitch, and in which phases will you normally mostly use
the yoke?

Good question for r.a.s.

You don't want to use the trim to adjust pitch, just to relieve the
control pressure. *Electronic trim switches mounted to the yoke are a
bad habit waiting to happen; they're disabled in a lot of training
aircraft. *Always remember "Pitch, power, trim."

The Airplane Flying Handbook, FAA-H-8083-3A, states:
"The pilot must avoid using the trim to establish or correct airplane
attitude. The airplane attitude must be established and held first, then
control pressures trimmed out so that the airplane will maintain the
desired attitude in 'hands off' flight. Attempting to 'fly the airplane
with trim tabs' is a common fault in basic flying technique even among
experienced pilots."

It's important for the pilot to feel the elevator pressure whereas with
a trim tab you're delegating that to mechanical authority.

Also, if you get out of the habit of knowing where your trim is set, you
increase the likelihood of approaching an elevator trim stall in a
missed approach or go-around. *This can be demonstrated pretty well in
MSFS2004--I think in the Mooney--by adjusting the elevator trim as if
you were in full-flaps landing configuration and then adding full power;
back-elevator trim will cause a radical nose-up pitch, exceeding the
critical angle of attack. *To avoid elevator trim stall the pilot must
exert a great deal of forward pressure on the nose -and- retrim the
airplane, and it has to be brisk and smooth. *Whether by hand or
electric motor, controlling it by trim is too slow.
-c

Quick question, (it's been awhile since I've piloted)
is the trim (Cessna 152) *in the center, right of the
pilot, and has zero mark to be set null in pre-flight?


It's also around the windows and other edges. Hope this helps your
understading what you are seeing on your computer screen.
Cheers

Robert M. Gary writes:

I'm not sure how you can without a force feedback joy stick. You use
the trim to remove pressure from the yoke.

As I've explained, I can trim until I no longer need to hold the joystick away
from the neutral position. The stick is spring-loaded, which provides a so-so
simulation of control pressure.

I've read that force-feedback sticks are so inaccurate that it's better to
just have a stick with springs.