More plane ownership?

I own a boat and rent my airplane.

The boat I own is probably the marine equivalent of a Piper Warrior
(which is what I fly) -- it's a 15 foot 1987 ski boat with a 120
horsepower I/O motor. I rent the Warrior through my flying club.

The boat cost me less than $3,000 to buy. When it needed an engine
overhaul, that cost me $1800 including labor.

The Warrior I fly would probably cost me about $30-40,000 to buy. I bet
an engine overhaul for the Warrior would be five figures.

The flying club is great. It is economical and takes most of the
hassles out of ownership. It's pretty hard to justify owning a plane
when the club is so good. There is no equivalent for boating, if there
were maybe fewer people would own boats.

But the fact is that since I took up flying, the boat has been rotting
in my front yard. I really need to get rid of it, but I just don't want
to deal with it for the small amount it's worth.

Let's see.

Owned boat: hook the trailer up, tow it to the lake, put it in, hope it
starts. Big hassle factor before even starting to enjoy it. Counting
all that "preflight" for the boat is usually about an hour. If it
doesn't start, take it back out and tow it to a shop. If it does
work, I am confined to buzzing around that particular lake. When done,
reverse the above process taking it home. And if I don't use it for a
while, it deteriorates.

Club Plane: it's there on the ramp ready to go. Preflight is usually
about 30 mins. It gets flown regularly whether I have time to fly or
not, so it's not rotting when I can't fly and for most squawks someone
else notices it first and either it's been fixed or I know it going in.
Its maint is taken care of (club has an A&P). Whenever I find there is
a squawk or a failure I don't stay awake nights worrying "oh great how
much is THIS one going to cost me". I can go basically anywhere I want
in the plane, instead of being confined to one lake like on a boat.
Only drawback of club vs. ownership: availability on nice weekends.
But is it worth all the extra cost to just overcome that one drawback
and add some more drawbacks and expenses that come with ownership? I
have figured that even if you gave me a plane for free, there is no
honest accounting under which it doesn't cost more to fly than the club.

In short, now that I fly, boats bore me. But it's really hard to
justify buying a plane when renting through the club is such a good
deal. An equivalent boat is much cheaper to buy but IMO nowhere near as
enjoyable.

JM ramblings on the subject.



Dave Covert wrote:

This is something that has puzzled me for a while...

I (a private pilot) work in the pleasure marine industry and have noticed
that almost anyone who wants to own a boat does own a boat. Now, some boats
are indeed pretty cheap, but a $20,000 boat is fairly common (approx cost of
a 150?). Here in the Clear Lake area of Texas there are something like
10,000 boats sitting in marina slips with an average cost of something like
$30,000 each... many cost way, way more than that. A boat slip here on the
Texas coast will run you about $5/foot (which is cheap, I know) and
insurance for a $100,000 boat will run you maybe $2,000 a year. Most leave
their slips once or twice a year. Marine maintenance and gear is not cheap
either. That is a whole lot of expense for so little use.

That is 10,000 people, here in Houston alone, that never bothered to take a
class in boating, but that are willing to drop $30,000 on one, pay $150-$250
on slip rent and $100-$150 per month on insurance.

After so much effort learning to fly, why do pilots not do the same thing?
Whereas most boaters own a boat, most pilots do not own a plane.

Is it initial cost? Boats and planes cost about the same, so I don't think
that is it.

Is it storage? A boat slip can cost a bit less than a hanger, or a bit more,
but planes can use cheap tie-downs. Do people not buy planes because they
might have to tie it down outside?

Is it lack of use? Boaters have the same problem... when to use the boat in
their spare time. Why would they spring for the boat and a pilot with the
same time constraints not spring for the plane?

Is it insurance? Plane insurance is more costly than boat insurance, but
using a tie-down would make up for that.

Is it maintenance? Perhaps that is it... planes are required to undergo
expensive preventive maintenance where boats just get a tow back to shore
when something breaks. Is it really the fear of 'the annual' that causes
people not to fly?

Is it fear of flying? Do people learn to fly because they want the challenge
but secretly believe they are just asking to make their wife a widow every
time they fly? Do people not trust an airplane they could buy?

I truly want to know the reason for this and the only way I am going to find
out is to listen to more pilots.

So please, if you are a pilot, and you don't own a plane, please email me
with a candid explanation as to why you personally don't own one. I will
compile the 'data' and post it back to the group once I have some idea of
the answer.

Dave
74 Grumman AA5, N9560L
dave(a)thecoverts.com

Three reasons I can think of to buy:

1) availability on weekends and for short flights where minimums would kick in
(eg, a day trip to Block Island..a 20 minute flight)

2) I fly IFR. When I was renting, I would not have flown any of the rentals I had
access to into serious IFR conditions. My plane, I know when things are not quite
right and get them fixed before they become a problem. I can equip the plane the
way I want, and maintain it to the level that makes me comfortable. I know when I
get in it, that everything will be left the way it was last time I flew it.

3) When the family exceeds seats on a typical rental (like mine does), you may not
be able to find any rental that suits your needs. I've got 4 kids and a 5th due
any day now. I have a Cherokee Six with the seventh seat option. Fits the family
plus the dog. Try renting a six seat single. There are a few around, but none
within several hours driving time of my home (the only one I know of in the north
east is cross keys airport in southern NJ).

I did find that owning, I fly much more than I did when I was renting. Short
trips to the local islands, or relatively short trips where the time to fly is
approximately equal to the time to drive are now done by air. It wouldn't have
happened renting. I also fly places on weekends more frequently (often on a spur
of the moment). Renting, you had to plan way ahead, and had near zero flexibility
if the weather was bad.

TTA Cherokee Driver wrote:

I own a boat and rent my airplane.

The boat I own is probably the marine equivalent of a Piper Warrior
(which is what I fly) -- it's a 15 foot 1987 ski boat with a 120
horsepower I/O motor. I rent the Warrior through my flying club.

The boat cost me less than $3,000 to buy. When it needed an engine
overhaul, that cost me $1800 including labor.

The Warrior I fly would probably cost me about $30-40,000 to buy. I bet
an engine overhaul for the Warrior would be five figures.

The flying club is great. It is economical and takes most of the
hassles out of ownership. It's pretty hard to justify owning a plane
when the club is so good. There is no equivalent for boating, if there
were maybe fewer people would own boats.

But the fact is that since I took up flying, the boat has been rotting
in my front yard. I really need to get rid of it, but I just don't want
to deal with it for the small amount it's worth.

Let's see.

Owned boat: hook the trailer up, tow it to the lake, put it in, hope it
starts. Big hassle factor before even starting to enjoy it. Counting
all that "preflight" for the boat is usually about an hour. If it
doesn't start, take it back out and tow it to a shop. If it does
work, I am confined to buzzing around that particular lake. When done,
reverse the above process taking it home. And if I don't use it for a
while, it deteriorates.

Club Plane: it's there on the ramp ready to go. Preflight is usually
about 30 mins. It gets flown regularly whether I have time to fly or
not, so it's not rotting when I can't fly and for most squawks someone
else notices it first and either it's been fixed or I know it going in.
Its maint is taken care of (club has an A&P). Whenever I find there is
a squawk or a failure I don't stay awake nights worrying "oh great how
much is THIS one going to cost me". I can go basically anywhere I want
in the plane, instead of being confined to one lake like on a boat.
Only drawback of club vs. ownership: availability on nice weekends.
But is it worth all the extra cost to just overcome that one drawback
and add some more drawbacks and expenses that come with ownership? I
have figured that even if you gave me a plane for free, there is no
honest accounting under which it doesn't cost more to fly than the club.

In short, now that I fly, boats bore me. But it's really hard to
justify buying a plane when renting through the club is such a good
deal. An equivalent boat is much cheaper to buy but IMO nowhere near as
enjoyable.

JM ramblings on the subject.

Dave Covert wrote:

This is something that has puzzled me for a while...

I (a private pilot) work in the pleasure marine industry and have noticed
that almost anyone who wants to own a boat does own a boat. Now, some boats
are indeed pretty cheap, but a $20,000 boat is fairly common (approx cost of
a 150?). Here in the Clear Lake area of Texas there are something like
10,000 boats sitting in marina slips with an average cost of something like
$30,000 each... many cost way, way more than that. A boat slip here on the
Texas coast will run you about $5/foot (which is cheap, I know) and
insurance for a $100,000 boat will run you maybe $2,000 a year. Most leave
their slips once or twice a year. Marine maintenance and gear is not cheap
either. That is a whole lot of expense for so little use.

That is 10,000 people, here in Houston alone, that never bothered to take a
class in boating, but that are willing to drop $30,000 on one, pay $150-$250
on slip rent and $100-$150 per month on insurance.

After so much effort learning to fly, why do pilots not do the same thing?
Whereas most boaters own a boat, most pilots do not own a plane.

Is it initial cost? Boats and planes cost about the same, so I don't think
that is it.

Is it storage? A boat slip can cost a bit less than a hanger, or a bit more,
but planes can use cheap tie-downs. Do people not buy planes because they
might have to tie it down outside?

Is it lack of use? Boaters have the same problem... when to use the boat in
their spare time. Why would they spring for the boat and a pilot with the
same time constraints not spring for the plane?

Is it insurance? Plane insurance is more costly than boat insurance, but
using a tie-down would make up for that.

Is it maintenance? Perhaps that is it... planes are required to undergo
expensive preventive maintenance where boats just get a tow back to shore
when something breaks. Is it really the fear of 'the annual' that causes
people not to fly?

Is it fear of flying? Do people learn to fly because they want the challenge
but secretly believe they are just asking to make their wife a widow every
time they fly? Do people not trust an airplane they could buy?

I truly want to know the reason for this and the only way I am going to find
out is to listen to more pilots.

So please, if you are a pilot, and you don't own a plane, please email me
with a candid explanation as to why you personally don't own one. I will
compile the 'data' and post it back to the group once I have some idea of
the answer.

Dave
74 Grumman AA5, N9560L
dave(a)thecoverts.com



--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

I bought my plane for the control of maintenance and peace of mind. I
fly my family in my Dakota, and I like the comfort of knowing that no
item has been skimped on, and that the airplane hasn't been abused.
I received my certification for coastal cruising and navigation from
The Canadian Yaughting Association when I was 15, so I'm no stranger
to boating.
I now live in California. Los Angeles to be exact. The nearest fresh
water worth dropping a boat into is a six hour drive. Any of my
friends who own boats pay the same for their slip as I do for my
hangar at KVNY. My hangar is $625 a month, most slips go from $15-$20
a foot, getting an Ocean boat under 30' is not worth it. My boating
friends drop mucho coin into their boats for maintenance and
improvements, salt water boats take a lot of abuse.
So for California at least, the economics are pretty even between the
two. For my money, there is only so many times I can sail out to
Catalina and back, or sail down to Mexico to watch a Gray Whale float
by. Plus, after getting my certification when I was 15, I find local
sailing presents little challenge. Long distance sailing is another
story, but that requires a lot of time, not something you can
accomplish on a weekend. Whereas I am always facing new challenges
with aviation, it is holding my interest better than sailing did.

"Dave Covert" wrote
I (a private pilot) work in the pleasure marine industry and have noticed
that almost anyone who wants to own a boat does own a boat. Now, some boats
are indeed pretty cheap, but a $20,000 boat is fairly common (approx cost of
a 150?).

Yes - an old, ragged-out C-150 that barely carries two people and no
bags. I've seen the ads. I can be in a serviceable, ready-to-sail
boat for well under $10K. I can't get any kind of airplane (other
than maybe an experimental single seater) in serviceable, ready-to-fly
condition for that.

A boat slip here on the
Texas coast will run you about $5/foot (which is cheap, I know)

Yep. For a 30 foot boat that's what, $150/month? I pay over double
that for a hangar.

Marine maintenance and gear is not cheap either.

Yes it is. Compare a new marine GPS to a new aviation (panel-mount)
GPS. Compare a new marine RADAR to a new aviation RADAR. Compare a
new marine engine to a new aviation engine. The price difference is
huge.

Is it initial cost? Boats and planes cost about the same, so I don't think
that is it.

No, you area wrong. A 4 person boat (one that can take 4 full size
people, their stuff, and full fuel tanks) does NOT cost near as much
as a boat that can do the same.

Is it maintenance? Perhaps that is it... planes are required to undergo
expensive preventive maintenance

Maintenance is a huge issue. What's more, it's not the labor - it's
the parts. I own a certified airplane, and it is my last. I will
NEVER again buy a certified airplane. It's not because I need to pay
an A&P. I have a friend who is an IA. He is happy to sign off my
work - as long as I do it by the rules. That means using approved
parts and processes. He knows that in most cases the approved parts
are not only hideously overpriced but also grossly inferior, but he
can't do anything else or he will lose his IA. My IA has sold his
certified airplane and is now building an experimental so that he can
stop doing things the FAA way, and start doing what makes sense.

My biggest expense in owning a plane, and the biggest factor that
keeps it from being as safe as it could be, is the FAA. I think the
biggest factor that keeps most pilots from owning airplanes is the
FAA.

Michael

A gentleman on another mailing list I subscribe to offered an interesting
observation along these lines today. He was referring to the history of
his plane, which apparently was actively flown all over the country for
business travel back in the 40's and early 50's (paraphrased):

When the planes were being made, the airlines of the day were not
quite twice as fast, and the cost of airline travel was far higher. Today
if you fly a fast piston powered airplane you're going, relative to the
airlines, half as fast for four times the cost.

Some grist for the mill, methinks.

Henry Bibb

Henry Bibb wrote:

When the planes were being made, the airlines of the day were not
quite twice as fast, and the cost of airline travel was far higher. Today
if you fly a fast piston powered airplane you're going, relative to the
airlines, half as fast for four times the cost.

Some grist for the mill, methinks.

Only if you're going further than about 1500 miles. We may not fly as fast, but
we don't have to show up at the airport two hours ahead to get through security,
and we don't have to fly 500 miles out of the way to go through some hub, and we
don't have to spend an hour or two at a layover when we get to that hub.

I cruise at 126 mph and I can beat Delta from my house in New Jersey to my mother's
house in Knoxville, TN without pushing hard.

George Patterson
Love, n.: A form of temporary insanity afflicting the young. It is curable
either by marriage or by removal of the afflicted from the circumstances
under which he incurred the condition. It is sometimes fatal, but more
often to the physician than to the patient.

On 5-Feb-2004, "Henry Bibb" wrote:

Today
if you fly a fast piston powered airplane you're going, relative to the
airlines, half as fast for four times the cost.


I think that this statement needs to be put in some perspective. For one
thing, when it comes to flying your own airplane you have to consider both
total and incremental costs. I figure the total hourly cost for our Arrow,
given its average annual usage, at around $100. But incremental cost, that
is the cost of flying an additional hour, all else being equal, is only
about $35.00 -- really, it's only the cost of fuel and pro-rated hourly
engine/prop overhaul, plus maybe a buck or two to cover other
usage-sensitive maintenance.

Last November my wife and I needed to travel from our home near Seattle to
the Los Angeles area. Because it was relatively short notice the best
airfare we could get was around $700 round trip for the two of us. We took
the Arrow instead, and accumulated a touch over 12 hours. In terms of total
hourly cost (about $1200) the airlines would have been a lot less expensive.
However, in terms of incremental cost we saved quite a bit of money by
taking the Arrow. And, it there had been three of us traveling the savings
would have been much greater.

--
-Elliott Drucker

"Dave Covert" wrote in message
...

Don't have the word "sucker" across the top of the head.

In article , wrote:

we don't have to show up at the airport two hours ahead to get through
security,

but sometime we do go to the airport two hours before we "have"
to depart because it's fun!

--
Bob Noel

G.R. Patterson III wrote:


Henry Bibb wrote:

When the planes were being made, the airlines of the day were not
quite twice as fast, and the cost of airline travel was far higher. Today
if you fly a fast piston powered airplane you're going, relative to the
airlines, half as fast for four times the cost.

Some grist for the mill, methinks.


Only if you're going further than about 1500 miles. We may not fly as fast, but
we don't have to show up at the airport two hours ahead to get through security,
and we don't have to fly 500 miles out of the way to go through some hub, and we
don't have to spend an hour or two at a layover when we get to that hub.

I cruise at 126 mph and I can beat Delta from my house in New Jersey to my mother's
house in Knoxville, TN without pushing hard.


I don't doubt it for this distance, but I also don't think GA pilots
honestly account for how long a flight takes.

You have to include your flight planning time, as well as door-to-door
time when comparing flying somewhere to driving there, for example. I
take a lot of flights around 100nm, and quite frankly I don't think in
any of them I saved any time over driving when I honestly account for
ALL the time the flight took, including planning and preparation. But I
still do it because I love to fly.

I figure that will change when I start flying longer distances.