Fake military guys & the Stolen Valor Act of 2005

On Aug 22, 1:31�pm, Ed Rasimus wrote:
One of the most egregious I saw was in Colorado where a Veteran's day
celebration had Sen. Ben Campbell on stage with a guy in USAF
Colonel's uniform wearing an AF Cross, several Silver Stars and a
number of DFC's. He professed to have been a POW and escapee from
Hanoi as well as a fighter pilot hero.

He was blissfully unaware that sharing the stage was retired Navy
Captain Mike McGrath, former POW and then president of the Nam-POWs
who had never seen the guy before and quickly outed him.

That's why I think it's pathological. If a con artist wanted to pass,
he'd make a vague allusion to service and then respond to questions
with "I don't want to/can't talk about it", as do many real vets, and
let people think what they want.
There's a very shrewd French movie, based on some real life cases, "A
Self-Made Hero",

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118020/

about a man who allows people to think he was in the Resistance,
without making any particular claims. In most cases they are eager to
believe it. He keeps up the sham until the climax, when he finds
himself in a position where he has to live up to his act.

On Aug 22, 7:38�pm, "dott.Piergiorgio"
wrote:
Andrew Chaplin ha scritto:

Most of it is pathetic overreaching, like the Major in "Separate
Tables", with a few outright mental cases. But someone in a prominant
local or greater position--teachers, officials, politicians--seems
pathological. It's so easy to check, you'd have to be nuts to try and
fake it, particularly with any kind of front line unit or valor
decoration.
OTOH, I'm always interested in seeing how Vulcans and neocons with
Viet Nam draft birthdates handled that character check.

Vulcans in this context means..... ?

Last time I checked Leonard Nimoy was already outside drafting age, in 1966.

And also, RAF Vulcans neither was in US inventory or used in 'Nam.

Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Vulcans

On 2008-08-22 07:14:06 -0700, "Vaughn Simon"
said:

In the age if the Internet it is very easy for one to make the claim, and
even easier for the world to discover that the claim is false.

Things are heading that way, yes, but it's still the case that truly
canonical registers are only available online for the very highest
military awards. The convenient analogy is with academic records,
which are so often faked as well. It might take a little legwork to
prove if someone really holds a Navy Cross or a PhD, but it's not that
hard. Trying to authenticate a Bronze Star or masters degree though,
you'll have to dig a bit, and a BA/BS or whatever one would call an
analogous military merit award...forget it.

(Perversely, the listing for my bachelors thesis can be found online
but my masters thesis is nowhere to be found.)

What advantage accrues to someone in the USA if they pretend to have had a
distinguished military career?

That really depends on one's individual situation, but usually there is very
little actual advantage connected to it. Perhaps you would be a big
man at your
local VFW club, but that doesn't put food on the table.

Actually, if you look at just the records of politicians who have
gotten nailed for fake medals or claiming advanced degrees they never
earned, it's pretty clear that they did benefit from the con.

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 21:42:44 +0100, "William Black"
wrote:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
.. .

Chuck and Mary Shantag, mentioned in the original post, are the
premier sleuths in digging up the facts on these folks. The poseurs
and wannabes are despicable and should be prosecuted to the maximum
extent of the law. Chuck and Mary do a great job of that. They come to
the annual River Rats reunions and are well supported by all of us.

You miss my point.

1. Why do the fakers do it?

For the same reason people steal. They wish to have something of value
which they did not earn.

While they may have devalued military service in general and heroism
in particular they believe as well that they accrue some benefit by
claiming exceptional combat valor, courage and credentials.

2. Why do people like the Shantags spend their lives looking for them?

While there may be some false glamour is the pretence it's surely only a
matter of time before they're exposed, and as for chasing them, don't
these people have a life? If you want to spend your time doing good works I
can think of several that are more rewarding.

Chuck is a retired Army helicopter pilot with extensive Vietnam
experience. They got involved with the search for POW verifications
and became very active in the POW/MIA activities. Gradually they
drifted into the Stolen Valor research and have built a network of
sources that make them the recognized US experts in the business.

There is no money in it, obviously, but there is a deep sense of
satisfaction. Bringing these creeps to justice isn't quite as visceral
as punching their lights out, but it can be more effective in
derailing them in the long run.

Personally I still lean toward cutting off their buttons, ripping
their epaulets, breaking their saber over my knee and tossing them out
the gate...but that's just me.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
www.thundertales.blogspot.com
www.thunderchief.org

On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 13:31:53 GMT, Ed Rasimus
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 21:42:44 +0100, "William Black"
wrote:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
. ..

Chuck and Mary Shantag, mentioned in the original post, are the
premier sleuths in digging up the facts on these folks. The poseurs
and wannabes are despicable and should be prosecuted to the maximum
extent of the law. Chuck and Mary do a great job of that. They come to
the annual River Rats reunions and are well supported by all of us.

You miss my point.

1. Why do the fakers do it?

For the same reason people steal. They wish to have something of value
which they did not earn.

While they may have devalued military service in general and heroism
in particular they believe as well that they accrue some benefit by
claiming exceptional combat valor, courage and credentials.

Possibly, but bull****ters are more driven by the risk and the
desire to see if they can get away with it. Harry Frankfurt's "On
Bull****" has good insight. (It's a nice read.) Originally
published as an essay in Raritan, it is a book now. About $5 used
on Amazon.

Know your enemy


Peter Skelton

On Aug 23, 9:31�am, Ed Rasimus wrote:
Personally I still lean toward cutting off their buttons, ripping
their epaulets, breaking their saber over my knee and tossing them out
the gate...but that's just me.

1. They have NO buttons, epaulets or saber.
2. They'd probably get a similar perverse thrill out of the ceremony.

A pie in the face is more like it.

Ed Rasimus wrote:
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 21:42:44 +0100, "William Black"
wrote:

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...

Chuck and Mary Shantag, mentioned in the original post, are the
premier sleuths in digging up the facts on these folks. The poseurs
and wannabes are despicable and should be prosecuted to the maximum
extent of the law. Chuck and Mary do a great job of that. They come to
the annual River Rats reunions and are well supported by all of us.
You miss my point.

1. Why do the fakers do it?

For the same reason people steal. They wish to have something of value
which they did not earn.

While they may have devalued military service in general and heroism
in particular they believe as well that they accrue some benefit by
claiming exceptional combat valor, courage and credentials.
2. Why do people like the Shantags spend their lives looking for them?

While there may be some false glamour is the pretence it's surely only a
matter of time before they're exposed, and as for chasing them, don't
these people have a life? If you want to spend your time doing good works I
can think of several that are more rewarding.

Chuck is a retired Army helicopter pilot with extensive Vietnam
experience. They got involved with the search for POW verifications
and became very active in the POW/MIA activities. Gradually they
drifted into the Stolen Valor research and have built a network of
sources that make them the recognized US experts in the business.

There is no money in it, obviously, but there is a deep sense of
satisfaction. Bringing these creeps to justice isn't quite as visceral
as punching their lights out, but it can be more effective in
derailing them in the long run.

Personally I still lean toward cutting off their buttons, ripping
their epaulets, breaking their saber over my knee and tossing them out
the gate...but that's just me.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
www.thundertales.blogspot.com
www.thunderchief.org


I make a distinction between the guys who do it for fun like the
comedian Gallagher who used the line "I lost my hair in Viet Nam" and
the jerks who expect one to believe their stories for some sort of
personal gain.

Several years ago I came across a photograph of a man in USMC field
grade mess dress uniform being handcuffed and led away. I was disturbed
at the idea, but even more so when I found out he had been arrested for
impersonation.

I am not against selling or trading awards and decorations since
there are collectors out there, myself included. The Stolen Valour Act
means I can't sell or trade the Medal of Honour ribbon in my collection
and that I will never fill the blanks for the medals themselves. I do
understand why that part of the act was put in and feel that anyone
falsely claiming the award should be run through a virtual wood chipper.

Anyway, there I wuz in Pusan 1950 where I was a combat assault cook
making coffee in cubes......

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 21:42:44 +0100, "William Black"
wrote:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
. ..

Chuck and Mary Shantag, mentioned in the original post, are the
premier sleuths in digging up the facts on these folks. The poseurs
and wannabes are despicable and should be prosecuted to the maximum
extent of the law. Chuck and Mary do a great job of that. They come to
the annual River Rats reunions and are well supported by all of us.

You miss my point.

1. Why do the fakers do it?

For the same reason people steal. They wish to have something of value
which they did not earn.

While they may have devalued military service in general and heroism
in particular they believe as well that they accrue some benefit by
claiming exceptional combat valor, courage and credentials.

Well then you have do some sort of 'risk/benefit' analysis then.

The risks seem high if people are spending their lives chasing them down.

There seem to be no material benefits.

Why bother?

Don't misunderstand, everyone's met the guy who claims to have served with
the SAS who turns out to have been a cook on a base where an SAS man once
turned up to give a talk on '"The Military Architecture of Hereford";
that's almost expected.

But who on earth claims significant decorations in the hope that no-one will
notice?

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

tomcervo ha scritto:

Vulcans in this context means..... ?

Last time I checked Leonard Nimoy was already outside drafting age, in 1966.

And also, RAF Vulcans neither was in US inventory or used in 'Nam.

Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Vulcans

Thanks.

Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 21:14:20 -0700 (PDT), tomcervo
wrote:

Last time I checked Leonard Nimoy was already outside drafting age, in 1966.

The first public sighting of Star Trek was at the World Science
Fiction Convention in Sep 66. I was there.
And also, RAF Vulcans neither was in US inventory or used in 'Nam.

No, but the US Army had a 20mm Gatling AA gun they called the Vulcan.

Casady