Kills with Guns

There was one Navy A-1 Spad MIG kill but I don't recall if he shot it down
(only weapons were guns and Zunis) or forced it down. As I recall (I was a
SAR contorller on Soputh SAR station) the event took place south of Vihn.
Any one know how the kill was achieved?
Art Greer

"TV" wrote in message
...
Israeli pilots have made gun kills with the F-15, and I believe, the F-16.
Maybe a Pakistani F-16 gun kill too. And in Venezuela, pilots have also
made guns kills with the F-16. I think all of the US F-14 and -18 kills
have been with Sidewinders.

In Vietnam, the lack of a gun in the F-4 was probably less of a problem
than poor tactical training and ROE/lack of early BVR NCTR. Not to
mention poor missile reliabilities. I say this based on the Crusader's
lack of gun kills. But it's a catchy bitching phrase to talk about the
lack of a gun as a major disadvantage.

TV

"Schlomo Lipchitz" wrote in message
...
Whevever I see a TV show about the F-4, all the AF guys do is bitch
about the early models not having a gun. Just how many kills (if any)
have the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F-18 had with guns???

[quote=Art Greer;529609]There was one Navy A-1 Spad MIG kill but I don't recall if he shot it down
(only weapons were guns and Zunis) or forced it down. As I recall (I was a
SAR contorller on Soputh SAR station) the event took place south of Vihn.
Any one know how the kill was achieved?
Art Greer

According to Rausa in his book 'Skyraider': 20 Jun 65 flight of four from VA-25 on Midway on RESCAP with 20mm and pods with 2.75 FFARs. Fairly far North --50 NM NW of Thanh Hoa. Alt 10K. Two MiG-17s overshoot and turn in head-on. A-1s Split-S for the deck into a valley with ridge lines both sides and karst formations around. Migs decide to try turning with the A-1s. Altitude about 500 feet above valley floor. One MiG hit in canopy with 20mm and slams into ridge; other bugs out.

Thanks. I assume the MIG was hit with guns since 2.75 FFARs are really not
an accurate air to air weapon. Since the event was in the Thanh Hoa area it
probably was a North Sar/Red Crown controller vice South SAR though we
controlled all the way into Haiphong on occasion..

Art Greer


"Larry Cauble" wrote in message
...

Art Greer;529609 Wrote:
There was one Navy A-1 Spad MIG kill but I don't recall if he shot it
down
(only weapons were guns and Zunis) or forced it down. As I recall (I
was a
SAR contorller on Soputh SAR station) the event took place south of
Vihn.
Any one know how the kill was achieved?
Art Greer

According to Rausa in his book 'Skyraider': 20 Jun 65 flight of four
from VA-25 on Midway on RESCAP with 20mm and pods with 2.75 FFARs.
Fairly far North --50 NM NW of Thanh Hoa. Alt 10K. Two MiG-17s
overshoot and turn in head-on. A-1s Split-S for the deck into a valley
with ridge lines both sides and karst formations around. Migs decide to
try turning with the A-1s. Altitude about 500 feet above valley floor.
One MiG hit in canopy and slams into ridge; other bugs out.




--
Larry Cauble

Didn't B-52's score 2 MiG kills with their tail turrets in Vietnam?

wrote in news:1183445784.791223.313020
@o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com:

Didn't B-52's score 2 MiG kills with their tail turrets in Vietnam?

And supposedly two F-4 kills, too. My source was a B-52 gunner.

Dave in San Diego

On Sun, 1 Jul 2007 00:25:48 -0400, "TV" wrote:

No Crusader gun kills?

If I'm not mistaken, there were only 3-4 kills out of the 19-20 that the
Crusader got in Vietnam. The rest were Sidewinder kills. So like I said
below, this goes against the idea of the gun being critical to a-a success
in Vietnam. Only a fool would argue that it wouldn't have helped to have a
gun on all the F-4s, but it wouldn't have been as revolutionary as some
claim IMO. There were F-4 gun kills too, but again, far fewer than missile
kills (even for the -E). ROE, training, NCTR, and missile reliability were
the more critical factors IMO.

TV


There were quite a few F-4E gun kill in SEA and even several F-4D pod
gun kills. Dee Simmons got two with a podded gun. Saw Big D a couple
of days ago at Robin Olds' memorial service.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 22:44:26 -0400, vincent norris
wrote:

An interesting note. Most Vietnam gun kills were scored by the F-105,
perhaps the least maneuverable aircraft in wide service there.

John, there ought to be some interesting stories about those kills.

vince norris

First F-105 kill was by my squadron commander, Fred Tracy on June 29,
1966. He was escorting a Wild Weasel on a raid against Yen Bai when a
MiG-17 came by shooting. Fred took a hit in the cockpit that knocked
out half the instrument panel, then hosed the MiG as he overshot.

Karl Richter and Fred Wilson became the first two Lieutenant MiG
killers on the same strike on the same day.

Dave Waldrop, who was at Robin's memorial service, got two MiGs in one
flight. The second one, he came out of a cloud cover inverted and
dropped between Olds and a MiG just in time to shoot. Olds later wrote
him a letter confirming the kill (and not bitching about the
interuption.) Waldrop now is flying the demonstration F-104 that is
regularly seen at airshows.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 23:56:24 -0700, wrote:

Didn't B-52's score 2 MiG kills with their tail turrets in Vietnam?

Got credit for two kills of MiG-21s during Linebacker II. Extremely
doubtful if that really happened, but is was good for their morale.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

There were quite a few F-4E gun kill in SEA and even several F-4D pod
gun kills. Dee Simmons got two with a podded gun. Saw Big D a couple
of days ago at Robin Olds' memorial service.

Olds died and it wasn't even mentioned here!?! Wow. For a long time, based
on interview snippets I heard from him, I thought he was an arrogant git.
But I saw a TV interview of him, that was fairly recent, where a lot of
those comments were shown to be taken out of context. Confident, yes. Git,
not. Great stories in general, and he definitely projected a solid image.

Coincidentally Ed, I'm just reading Palace Cobra now. I might have more
questions when I finish, but for now do you mind if I ask:

1- Relating to this thread, what do you think was most missing from U.S.
A-A? Guns, more reliable missiles, better ROE, Combat Tree (NCTR), or better
communication (like when you guys got robbed of thos Migs- the
"Mig-hoarding" of Udorn reminds me of the 55th in Desert Storm)? Or just
more Migs?

2- Would you have prefered to fly the F-105G or the F-4E for your missions?
For the planes as well as for the separate hunter/killer missions.

3- This relating to Olds. I also recently read Going Downtown. Having read
Thud Ridge a long time ago, it was also pretty decent. Broughton certainly
didn't suffer from lack of confidence either! I know you and the other
River Rats don't feel the warmest feelings towards him, but I was wondering
why when he was on trial (and Yeager was backing him up, so he couldn't have
been a total buffoon), Olds backed away from the trial. Career politics or
something more personal? I certainly don't want to much rake Olds in any
way, I'm curious about the history of the moment. General Ryan certainly
seemed like a jack-ass.

4- Did they really conduct an ORI in the middle of a successful air
campaign?!

Thanks,

TV

First F-105 kill was by my squadron commander......

Thanks, Ed.

vince norris