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LXNAV PowerMouse - U.S. F.C.C. Approved



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 22nd 19, 11:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Paul Remde
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Posts: 1,618
Default LXNAV PowerMouse - U.S. F.C.C. Approved

Hi,

The LXNAV PowerMouse has received U.S. F.C.C. approval for use in the USA!!!

Units will be available in September, 2019. Pre-Order Now!

- Much smaller than PowerFLARM Core
- Can Transmit on optional FLARM B port
- New PowerFLARM circuit board

Details: http://cumulus-soaring.com/lxnav.htm#LXNAV-PowerMouse

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
Ads
  #2  
Old August 23rd 19, 12:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Paul Remde
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,618
Default LXNAV PowerMouse - U.S. F.C.C. Approved

Hi,

LXNAV made an error when they told me yesterday that the PowerMouse can transmit on both the FLARM A and B ports. Today they told me that in the USA the PowerMouse will only transmit on the FLARM A port.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
_____________________________________

On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 5:31:25 PM UTC-5, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi,

The LXNAV PowerMouse has received U.S. F.C.C. approval for use in the USA!!!

Units will be available in September, 2019. Pre-Order Now!

- Much smaller than PowerFLARM Core
- Can Transmit on optional FLARM B port
- New PowerFLARM circuit board

Details: http://cumulus-soaring.com/lxnav.htm#LXNAV-PowerMouse

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.


  #3  
Old August 23rd 19, 01:29 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Nick Kennedy[_3_]
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Posts: 105
Default LXNAV PowerMouse - U.S. F.C.C. Approved

Paul
What is a Power Mouse?
Is it another system of Flarm like a core?
What is the difference/ advantage of a Mouse?
Nick

  #4  
Old August 23rd 19, 03:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Paul Remde
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,618
Default LXNAV PowerMouse - U.S. F.C.C. Approved

Hi Nick,

I explain all that he
http://cumulus-soaring.com/lxnav.htm#LXNAV-PowerMouse

To copy and paste from that site:

Differences Between the PowerMouse and the PowerFLARM Co
- The PowerMouse is much smaller than the PowerFLARM Core.
- The PowerMouse has the latest PowerFLARM hardware
- The PowerMouse IGC Enable is an extra cost option. It is included as standard with the PowerFLARM Core.
Note: The PowerMouse's optionalIGC Enable includes a logger altimeter calibration data sheet. The PowerFLARM Core does not, but I offer it as a $75 option.

You can also view my FLARM Comparison table he
http://cumulus-soaring.com/flarm.htm...ARM_Comparison

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

On Friday, August 23, 2019 at 7:29:44 AM UTC-5, Nick Kennedy wrote:
Paul
What is a Power Mouse?
Is it another system of Flarm like a core?
What is the difference/ advantage of a Mouse?
Nick


  #5  
Old August 23rd 19, 03:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Richard Pfiffner[_2_]
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Posts: 184
Default LXNAV PowerMouse - U.S. F.C.C. Approved

On Friday, August 23, 2019 at 5:29:44 AM UTC-7, Nick Kennedy wrote:
Paul
What is a Power Mouse?
Is it another system of Flarm like a core?
What is the difference/ advantage of a Mouse?
Nick


Nick,

The PowerMouse FCC also transmits and receives on the second optional RFB port. The PowerFlarm does not.

http://www.craggyaero.com/lxnav_flarm.htm

Richard
www.craggyaero.com
  #6  
Old August 23rd 19, 08:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Paul Remde
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,618
Default LXNAV PowerMouse - U.S. F.C.C. Approved

Hi,

I wish it did, but it doesn't. As stated above I received an email from LXNAV today (August 23, 2019) correcting the previous incorrect information. The PowerMouse will not transmit on the B port, unfortunately.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
_________________________________________

On Friday, August 23, 2019 at 9:27:58 AM UTC-5, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
On Friday, August 23, 2019 at 5:29:44 AM UTC-7, Nick Kennedy wrote:
Paul
What is a Power Mouse?
Is it another system of Flarm like a core?
What is the difference/ advantage of a Mouse?
Nick


Nick,

The PowerMouse FCC also transmits and receives on the second optional RFB port. The PowerFlarm does not.

http://www.craggyaero.com/lxnav_flarm.htm

Richard
www.craggyaero.com


  #7  
Old August 23rd 19, 10:28 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy Blackburn[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 554
Default LXNAV PowerMouse - U.S. F.C.C. Approved

On Friday, August 23, 2019 at 12:45:03 PM UTC-7, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi,

I wish it did, but it doesn't. As stated above I received an email from LXNAV today (August 23, 2019) correcting the previous incorrect information. The PowerMouse will not transmit on the B port, unfortunately.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
_________________________________________

On Friday, August 23, 2019 at 9:27:58 AM UTC-5, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
On Friday, August 23, 2019 at 5:29:44 AM UTC-7, Nick Kennedy wrote:
Paul
What is a Power Mouse?
Is it another system of Flarm like a core?
What is the difference/ advantage of a Mouse?
Nick


Nick,

The PowerMouse FCC also transmits and receives on the second optional RFB port. The PowerFlarm does not.

http://www.craggyaero.com/lxnav_flarm.htm

Richard
www.craggyaero.com


Hey Paul - you might also give an update on how it handles ADS-R and TIS-B targets. I've heard various things about ADS-R. I got a definitive 'No' from Uros on the TIS-B question.

It's tricky to do because they're in Europe so testing for US-specific features is...challenging.

Andy Blackburn
  #8  
Old August 24th 19, 12:06 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Richard Pfiffner[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 184
Default LXNAV PowerMouse - U.S. F.C.C. Approved

On Friday, August 23, 2019 at 2:28:39 PM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
On Friday, August 23, 2019 at 12:45:03 PM UTC-7, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi,

I wish it did, but it doesn't. As stated above I received an email from LXNAV today (August 23, 2019) correcting the previous incorrect information. The PowerMouse will not transmit on the B port, unfortunately.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
_________________________________________

On Friday, August 23, 2019 at 9:27:58 AM UTC-5, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
On Friday, August 23, 2019 at 5:29:44 AM UTC-7, Nick Kennedy wrote:
Paul
What is a Power Mouse?
Is it another system of Flarm like a core?
What is the difference/ advantage of a Mouse?
Nick

Nick,

The PowerMouse FCC also transmits and receives on the second optional RFB port. The PowerFlarm does not.

http://www.craggyaero.com/lxnav_flarm.htm

Richard
www.craggyaero.com


Hey Paul - you might also give an update on how it handles ADS-R and TIS-B targets. I've heard various things about ADS-R. I got a definitive 'No' from Uros on the TIS-B question.

It's tricky to do because they're in Europe so testing for US-specific features is...challenging.

Andy Blackburn


Andy,

You should see ADS-R on PowerFlarm and PowerMouse if you are near a rebroadcast station.

Automatic Dependent Surveillance ‐ Rebroadcast (ADS-R)

ADS-R is a client-based service that relays ADS-B information transmitted by an aircraft broadcasting on one link to aircraft equipped with ADS-B In on the other link. For example, the information for an aircraft equipped with a 1090MHz ADS-B Out system will be re-broadcasted to an aircraft equipped with ADS-B In on the UAT (i.e. 978MHz) frequency, and vice versa.


You may see TIS-B aircraft if a client aircraft is near you.

It appears to get TIS-B you also need ADS-B Out in your aircraft.

A definition TIS-B is in order.

Aircraft equipped with avionics meeting or exceeding TSO-C199 performance requirements are "TIS-B client aircraft." Non-ADS-B aircraft or aircraft broadcasting ADS-B but not meeting TSO-C199 requirements are "TIS-B targets." Client aircraft receive TIS-B targets that are within a 15 NM radius and +/- 3500 ft altitude of the client aircraft.

NOTE: Installing ADS-B In avionics without ADS-B Out avionics that meet or exceed the performance requirements of TSO-C199 only allows aircraft to receive TIS-B data intended for nearby Client aircraft that have qualified ADS-B Out avionics. This type of "piggybacking" will result in an incomplete representation of traffic around the aircraft. See "TIS-B Service Changes" below to understand the details of what ADS-B Out performance requirements must be met to receive full TIS-B services.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com
  #9  
Old August 24th 19, 05:19 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Watrous
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default LXNAV PowerMouse - U.S. F.C.C. Approved

Flarm's PowerFlarm Core product page still has the following text on it:

ADS-R, TIS-B, FIS-B and UAT are currently not supported.

My understanding is that you will only get non-directional Mode C/S transponders alerts for aircraft with a transponder that does not have 1090ES ADS-B out.

It would be nice to get an update as to if and when ADS-R will be supported on the PowerFlarm Core.

Dave W
  #10  
Old August 24th 19, 10:00 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Posts: 2,290
Default LXNAV PowerMouse - U.S. F.C.C. Approved

Oh dear, How many times has all this been discussed on r.a.s? :-)

(So apologies for this again, but only folks interested in ADS-R and TIS-B details should read further)

TIS-B and ADS-R has never been supported by PowerFLARM. There was hope it would be, FLARM at one time said they were hoping to do it, but there has not been an update from FLARM about that.

Wether an aircraft would receive ADS-R services is not just wether you are near a ADS-B ground station... so "Close to" an ADS-B Ground tower is not the right way to think about this. And Richard tries to clarify more later in his post but I want to rehash that all in one place.

First to state the trivial case, to receive ADS-B direct traffic warnings (ie. to see 1090ES Out equipped aircraft with a PowerFLARM or PowerMouse (with either device equipped with 1090ES receiver options) you don't need to do anything except configure the device to show 1090ES traffic information.

But then the rest gets more complex, to receive ADS-R (rebroadcast of UAT Out equipped traffic by the ground systems on 1090ES) or TIS-B traffic services (SSR radar based information about non-ADS-B Out equipped traffic) you do need line of sight to an FAA ADS-B tower covering the area you are in, but more importantly to reliably receive ADS-R services you aircraft needs to be a "client" of the FAA ADS-B Ground systems and that requires you have an 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out system (aka SIL=3), or a TABS/TSO-C199 compatible ADS-B Out system (aka SIL=1), *and* your ADS-B Out system must be configured to correctly describe the ADS-B In link-layer your aircraft has... technically what are called the capability code bits (so the ground infrastructure knows what link layer to transmit to your aircraft on/and which way to provide ADS-R translation services). Once you have all that you have some hope of being an ADS-B client aircraft and for the FAA ADS-B ground system to transmit ADS-R and TIS-B traffic information about aircraft flying nearby you.... but again it won't actually help with PowerFLARM because it does not decode the ADS-R or TIS-B traffic data.

What I have been having people do who are installing Trig ADS-B Out who also have PowerFLARM is to set the capability code in in their Trig transponders to say they have 1090ES In, even though we know PowerFLARM does not support ADS-R or TIS-B today. Having that set causes no real problems, if ADS-R and/or TIS-B support is ever added I did not want people forgetting to turn that capability on.

If instead of a PowerFLARM you have a separate UAT-only or dual-link receiver like a Stratux in the glider, (or you have Stratux and a PowerFLARM) you should set UAT *and* 1090ES In capability codes (that may be a more complex discussion if the FLARM device actually supported ADS-R/TIS-B). If your A&P is doing this for you they need to be asking what portable ADS-B In devices you fly with and setting this appropriately. You should also look at your FAA ADS-B Performance reports to check what capability code settings the FAA system is seeing

If you had a 1090ES receiver that supported ADS-R, for ADS-R to work the target aircraft would need to be transmitting 2020 Complaint UAT ADS-B Out (if it is transmitting 1090ES Out you see it directly, ADS-R is not used), and it also needs to within line of sight of the ADS-B towers (so that may not work at low altitudes), and for TIS-B to work the target aircraft has to be within SSR coverage that provides integrated TIS-B services (most of the FAA radar systems do...but not a lot of low altitudes say that cover gliderport pattern altitudes and many local soaring sites at low altitudes etc.) . ... and ta da with all those requirements met you can receive ASD-R and TIS-B services (again if PowerFLARM or the PowerMouse could decode it-I have no idea what the PowerMouse actually does).

Now onto the PowerMouse. Firstly I hope that is only sold in the USA with the 1090ES In option. That had been the plan with PowerFLARM, a few folks managed to buy it without 1090ES and some regretted it. Please lets not repeat that. ADS-B is getting widely deployed in the USA, even if you don't have ADS-B Out in your glider yet and you get a PowerFLARM or PowerMouse... you should want the 1090ES In capability to see 1090ES direct traffic, and want it to support future upgrades you might do if you do add 1090ES Out.

So does the PowerMouse support ADS-R or TIS-B? I have no idea, and that is ah kinda the wrong question. We'll at least much more detail is required if ADS-R and TIS-B is supported... what exactly does that support provide? e.g. What warnings are generated from the system for ADS-R and/or TIS-B traffic... remembering TIS-B especially which comes from SSR (secondary radar) will give very inaccurate position reports compared to FLARM or ADS-B direct.. So what works, exactly, what is the user experience in an FAA dual-link environment? What extra settings are provided to control ADS-R and TIS-B traffic/warnings, etc.

I have long wanted some support for ADS-R and maybe TIS-B with PowerFLARM but for example I would not expect or want TIS-B or likely even ADS-R traffic to generate $PFLAU high-priority traffic warnings, at least not how things currently work, but I sure would want it to generate $PFLAA general traffic data... which with current FLARM compatible displays would result in the display showing that traffic but not warning about it... until/if that traffic also trips up a PCAS alarm, if the receiving device is configured to do so. UAT Out only traffic "seen" via ADS-R might not have a transponder and then not generate even a PCAS warning. It may be a very bad day if somebody sees a target in their traffic display coming near them and they assume the system may then warn them using usual FLARM style magic ... and it does nothing. And there are cases where we'll have target deduplication problems.

And how would say TIS-B traffic be displayed even if you wanted to display it differently as a clue you may not get a warning? There is no capability in the FLARM serial display protocol to do that that I am aware of. Even if you could you probably can’t overload the display with much more info... they are already too complex/confusing. OK so just detect any traffic nearby and generate a GA ADS-B traffic system style "traffic traffic" warning ... do you want that going off continuously if you are near another glider being seen by ADS-R or TIS-B?

Are we all starting to get the idea there may be some gators hiding in this swamp? :-) And with systems that are already complex enough that folks have problems with them.... so my request now is that any vendors trying to add ADS-R and TIS-B focus on usability and describe and document very carefully what any of these products do in the complex mess of the USA dual-link ADS-B environment.

I hope vendors test any of that support well in the USA airspace and/or had some good FAA dual-link ADS-B systems simulators. And I hope that whatever LX navigation, and LX Nav, and FLARM does in this space all their products behave similarly... and I am concerned about that because LX Nav seem to have taken a different development path from FLARM and LX Navigation.

Because of the things I've mentioned I'd be more than happy to see any support for ADS-R or TIS-B be provided as an experimental/test feature from vendors to let them test and learn stuff in the USA environment. And to set the right expectation of users about wether these features are expected to be ready for serious use or not. Pragmatically as much as I want to see this stuff, this is also a very small market for these vendors and they cannot invest a lot of money into development and testing specifically for ADS-R and TIS-B features.

At the other extreme I will be disappointed if I see statements from vendors or resellers that just say things like "supports ADS-R and/or TIS-B". And I especially hope any claims to support that stuff is backed up with clear documentation, otherwise this all risks more confusion and potentially making glider pilots less safe.



On Friday, August 23, 2019 at 4:06:02 PM UTC-7, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
On Friday, August 23, 2019 at 2:28:39 PM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
On Friday, August 23, 2019 at 12:45:03 PM UTC-7, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi,

I wish it did, but it doesn't. As stated above I received an email from LXNAV today (August 23, 2019) correcting the previous incorrect information. The PowerMouse will not transmit on the B port, unfortunately.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
_________________________________________

On Friday, August 23, 2019 at 9:27:58 AM UTC-5, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
On Friday, August 23, 2019 at 5:29:44 AM UTC-7, Nick Kennedy wrote:
Paul
What is a Power Mouse?
Is it another system of Flarm like a core?
What is the difference/ advantage of a Mouse?
Nick

Nick,

The PowerMouse FCC also transmits and receives on the second optional RFB port. The PowerFlarm does not.

http://www.craggyaero.com/lxnav_flarm.htm

Richard
www.craggyaero.com


Hey Paul - you might also give an update on how it handles ADS-R and TIS-B targets. I've heard various things about ADS-R. I got a definitive 'No' from Uros on the TIS-B question.

It's tricky to do because they're in Europe so testing for US-specific features is...challenging.

Andy Blackburn


Andy,

You should see ADS-R on PowerFlarm and PowerMouse if you are near a rebroadcast station.

Automatic Dependent Surveillance ‐ Rebroadcast (ADS-R)

ADS-R is a client-based service that relays ADS-B information transmitted by an aircraft broadcasting on one link to aircraft equipped with ADS-B In on the other link. For example, the information for an aircraft equipped with a 1090MHz ADS-B Out system will be re-broadcasted to an aircraft equipped with ADS-B In on the UAT (i.e. 978MHz) frequency, and vice versa.


You may see TIS-B aircraft if a client aircraft is near you.

It appears to get TIS-B you also need ADS-B Out in your aircraft.

A definition TIS-B is in order.

Aircraft equipped with avionics meeting or exceeding TSO-C199 performance requirements are "TIS-B client aircraft." Non-ADS-B aircraft or aircraft broadcasting ADS-B but not meeting TSO-C199 requirements are "TIS-B targets." Client aircraft receive TIS-B targets that are within a 15 NM radius and +/- 3500 ft altitude of the client aircraft.

NOTE: Installing ADS-B In avionics without ADS-B Out avionics that meet or exceed the performance requirements of TSO-C199 only allows aircraft to receive TIS-B data intended for nearby Client aircraft that have qualified ADS-B Out avionics. This type of "piggybacking" will result in an incomplete representation of traffic around the aircraft. See "TIS-B Service Changes" below to understand the details of what ADS-B Out performance requirements must be met to receive full TIS-B services.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com


 




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