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Caution - Arizona Airspace and Borders



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 9th 10, 02:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy[_1_]
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Posts: 1,565
Default Caution - Arizona Airspace and Borders

Turnpoint Exchange includes airspace files. The airspace files listed
under Arizona Soaring Association were not provided by ASA, are not
approved by ASA, and are known to not properly depict the location of
the US Mexico border.

In the file asa_2010_sua.sua the border is defined by the Southern
boundary of the following airspace - R2301W, R2301E, Sells 1 MOA, Ruby
1 and Fuzzy MOAs. The border is undefined between W Nogales and
Evelyn. It is then defined by the Southern edge of Tombstone C MOA
and Tombstone B MOA, and is then undefined all the way to El Paso.

A review of the current sectional chart will show that each of these
airspace areas extends to, and it terminated by, the US Mexico border.

The polygon closing line to the South of these airspace areas does not
represent the location of the border.

An airspace file that does properly depict the US Mexico border is
available to ASA contest series and South West Soaring Championship
contestants from the scorer.

Andy

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  #2  
Old September 9th 10, 03:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Cochrane[_2_]
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Posts: 237
Default Caution - Arizona Airspace and Borders

On Sep 9, 8:14*am, Andy wrote:
Turnpoint Exchange includes airspace files. *The airspace files listed
under Arizona Soaring Association were not provided by ASA, are not
approved by ASA, and are known to not properly depict the location of
the US Mexico border.

In the file asa_2010_sua.sua the border is defined by the Southern
boundary of the following airspace - R2301W, R2301E, Sells 1 MOA, Ruby
1 and Fuzzy MOAs. The border is undefined between W Nogales and
Evelyn. *It is then defined by the Southern edge of Tombstone C MOA
and Tombstone B MOA, and is then undefined all the way to El Paso.

A review of the current sectional chart will show that each of these
airspace areas extends to, and it terminated by, the US Mexico border.

The polygon closing line to the South of these airspace areas does not
represent the location of the border.

An airspace file that does properly depict the US Mexico border is
available to ASA contest series and South West Soaring Championship
contestants from the scorer.

Andy


So why not just send John Leibacher the right file? He does an amazing
job of quickly posting files to the turnpoint exchange.
John Cochrane
  #3  
Old September 9th 10, 03:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,565
Default Caution - Arizona Airspace and Borders

On Sep 9, 7:14*am, John Cochrane
wrote:

So why not just send John Leibacher the right file? He does an amazing
job of quickly posting files to the turnpoint exchange.


Because I do not have the right to distribute the data except, as
scorer, to participants in the contest.

It's a long story and I don't have time now.

Andy
  #4  
Old September 9th 10, 03:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Posts: 2,396
Default Caution - Arizona Airspace and Borders

On Sep 9, 7:22*am, Andy wrote:
On Sep 9, 7:14*am, John Cochrane
wrote:

So why not just send John Leibacher the right file? He does an amazing
job of quickly posting files to the turnpoint exchange.


Because I do not have the right to distribute the data except, as
scorer, to participants in the contest.

It's a long story and I don't have time now.

Andy


And it will become the wrong file on the next update.

Darryl
  #5  
Old September 9th 10, 05:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike the Strike
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Posts: 951
Default Caution - Arizona Airspace and Borders

On Sep 9, 7:39*am, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Sep 9, 7:22*am, Andy wrote:

On Sep 9, 7:14*am, John Cochrane
wrote:


So why not just send John Leibacher the right file? He does an amazing
job of quickly posting files to the turnpoint exchange.


Because I do not have the right to distribute the data except, as
scorer, to participants in the contest.


It's a long story and I don't have time now.


Andy


And it will become the wrong file on the next update.

Darryl


I was the one who discovered the problem when I nicked an airspace
boundary during a recent contest. It's a complex area near the
international border with several MOAs and restricted military
training areas. In examining the data, I find the US/Mexico border is
displaced about 1 nautical mile south of the actual border (perhaps
because the data are based on ADIZ data). SeeYou and SeeYou mobile
clearly show the border in the wrong place. Two MOAs that are
adjacent to the border are correctly shown. The whole southern border
of Arizona is shown at latitude 31 degrees 19 minutes instead of 31
degrees 20 minutes. This 1 minute difference may be the ADIZ border
definition, but I am not sure. I am sure that the indicated border is
in the wrong place (it's obvious if you look at Nogales, for example).

Andy (our scorer) finds that scoring programs do not properly display
the border at all. Clearly, the use of closed polygons to display
lines has some problems.

Our two concerns a

1) There are errors in the database that show airspace boundaries in
the wrong place.

2) Scoring programs (Winscore, for example) handle the airspace files
differently than the navigation problems (such as SeeYou Mobile) and
may plot garbage. The result may be penalizing pilots for airspace
violations that did not occur, or vice-versa.

One major message, though, is to take the warnings on the files
seriously - do NOT use them for navigation purposes! That's what
charts are for.

Mike
  #6  
Old September 9th 10, 05:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,565
Default Caution - Arizona Airspace and Borders

On Sep 9, 9:02*am, Mike the Strike wrote:

Andy (our scorer) finds that scoring programs do not properly display
the border at all. *Clearly, the use of closed polygons to display
lines has some problems.


Not quite true. The airspace file the scorer is using depicts the
border in a way that I believe to be correct.

I used Cambridge Aero Explorer Plus to display both airspace sources
and have emailed you the screen captures. I used Aero Explorer Plus
because it was created by Byars and depicts the airspace in the same
way as Winscore. The program has the ability to overlay multiple
airspace files which Winscore (to the best of my knowledge) does not.

Anyone else wanting to see the screen captures is welcome to drop me
an email.

Andy
  #7  
Old September 9th 10, 07:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,096
Default Caution - Arizona Airspace and Borders

On 9/9/2010 9:02 AM, Mike the Strike wrote:
One major message, though, is to take the warnings on the files
seriously - do NOT use them for navigation purposes! That's what
charts are for.

How do you compare an IGC file to a paper chart? Can the pilot state "I
was legal according to my paper chart" and get away with it? I thought
the standard for contests was the pilot flew according to the turnpoint
and airspace files the contest provided, so pilots, scoring program, and
the contest managers were all using the same data.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (netto to net to email me)


  #8  
Old September 9th 10, 08:09 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike the Strike
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 951
Default Caution - Arizona Airspace and Borders

On Sep 9, 11:27*am, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 9/9/2010 9:02 AM, Mike the Strike wrote: One major message, though, is to take the warnings on the files
seriously - do NOT use them for navigation purposes! *That's what
charts are for.


How do you compare an IGC file to a paper chart? Can the pilot state "I
was legal according to my paper chart" and get away with it? I thought
the standard for contests was the pilot flew according to the turnpoint
and airspace files the contest provided, so pilots, scoring program, and
the contest managers were all using the same data.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (netto to net to email me)


Eric:

That's the rub. No official airspace file has been either defined or
given to contestants.

We have the situation where the scorer is using files he developed
himself and the rest of us are using files from the Turnpoint Exchange
that are not deemed "official". Who knows what the CD is using!

We didn't think that this was a big problem until we ran into the
latest glitch, now we are going to address the issue!

Mike

  #9  
Old September 9th 10, 09:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kirk.stant
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,257
Default Caution - Arizona Airspace and Borders

On Sep 9, 2:09*pm, Mike the Strike wrote:
On Sep 9, 11:27*am, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 9/9/2010 9:02 AM, Mike the Strike wrote: One major message, though, is to take the warnings on the files
seriously - do NOT use them for navigation purposes! *That's what
charts are for.


How do you compare an IGC file to a paper chart? Can the pilot state "I
was legal according to my paper chart" and get away with it? I thought
the standard for contests was the pilot flew according to the turnpoint
and airspace files the contest provided, so pilots, scoring program, and
the contest managers were all using the same data.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (netto to net to email me)


Eric:

That's the rub. *No official airspace file has been either defined or
given to contestants.

We have the situation where the scorer is using files he developed
himself and the rest of us are using files from the Turnpoint Exchange
that are not deemed "official". *Who knows what the CD is using!

We didn't think that this was a big problem until we ran into the
latest glitch, now we are going to address the issue!

Mike


And just to throw some more fuel on this fire, as pilots we are
responsible for navigating with reference to approved data, which
means Sectional charts or VFR GPSs with up to date navigation data
(say a Garmin with current cycle data loaded). So what happens if the
scoring program, using non-official airspace data, shows a violation,
and the pilot proves, somehow, that he used his up to date VFR Garmin
and/or sectional and did not bust the airspace? Who is right? The
pilot is right as far as the FAA is concerned, but wrong in Winscores
mind?

Oh boy, this is going to be fun!

Kirk
66
  #10  
Old September 10th 10, 01:55 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
5Z
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 394
Default Caution - Arizona Airspace and Borders

On Sep 9, 1:54*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:
And just to throw some more fuel on this fire, as pilots we are
responsible for navigating with reference to approved data, which
means Sectional charts or VFR GPSs with up to date navigation data
(say a Garmin with current cycle data loaded). *So what happens if the
scoring program, using non-official airspace data, shows a violation,
and the pilot proves, somehow, that he used his up to date VFR Garmin
and/or sectional and did not bust the airspace? Who is right? *The
pilot is right as far as the FAA is concerned, but wrong in Winscores
mind?


For scoring there needs to be a single source of digital information,
whether it matches reality or not, that is what the pilots and scorer
should use. This file IMHO, should be available a "reasonable" time
before the first contest day.

As for FAA, the pilot is responsible for that issue using "APPROVED"
information. So if the contest says the restricted airspace is bigger
than reality, then that is what it is as far as the contest is
concerned. If the airspace file is in error the other way, then it is
up to the pilot to use other, official, means to stay legal. Again,
IMHO, airspace boundaries for scoring are just that, SCORING
boundaries, not "real" airspace boundaries.

Yes, that means that a pilot could violate FAA airspace and get a
valid score, but if that happens, I see no reason against someone
submitting a protest AGAINST THE PILOT or pilots involved, but not
against the competition. These boundaries are not to be used for
navigation, just for scoring.

-Tom
 




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