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FLARM Technology for the US Gliding Community



 
 
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  #41  
Old September 18th 10, 01:50 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andrzej Kobus
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Posts: 576
Default FLARM Technology for the US Gliding Community

On Sep 17, 8:16*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Sep 17, 2:22*pm, Andrzej Kobus wrote:





Please correct me if I am wrong.


There is still no information that I could find on how the PCAS part
of the PowerFlarm will behave in a thermal full of gliders equipped
with Mod C transponders and PowerFlarms.


I would like to hear how would this unit be usable in such a
situation?


There is no way signals from Mod C transponders could be correlated
with FLARM so the PCAS would just get crazy and the unit unusable,
correct?


And what about a similar situation where gliders are only equipped
with Mod C transponders, I guess the same outcome the unit would be
unusable due to many signal sources in small area. I already
experienced this with Zaon MRX so I know this is the case.


So, how will it work? Anyone truly knows?


What I want is a pure FLARM! I don't need the annoyance of a PCAS when
I am in a thermal full of gliders equipped with Mod C transponders. I
also don't need ADS-B for a while until it will really be usable. Why
do I need to be early adopter of the ADS-B when I want to be an early
adopter of FLARM.


This box looks to me was designed for power pilots who don't fly very
close to a bunch of other aircraft equipped with transponders then the
PCAS is not a problem.


I am not about to purchase another annoying instrument I already have
one PCAS. It is great outside glider congested areas but not in a
contest. So unless I hear the PCAS issue is resolved in some way I am
not going to buy a unit to find out it is not doing what I need to do.


I am waiting to be corrected with FACTS.


AK


This has already been discussed in threads here. As you point out PCAS
cannot work in crowded gaggles - so you disable the PCAS alarm in
those situation. As I've pointed out before it's not just that it will
be annoying, it is that the Mode C transponders fundamentally wont'
work properly in crowded gaggles. There is no other way "resolve" this
issue, so you turn it off. This is a product designed to work in
contest environments, the developers understand these issues.

Darryl


Yes, it was discussed here without any implementation facts! I am
looking for facts and a definite answer rather than "the developers
know".

Do you know this for a fact that I can turn off PCAS functionality in
PowerFlarm without turning off the unit?

In Europe where Mod S is required this is not a problem since you can
program the codes into the unit and correlate with Flarm, but in US
most gliders equipped with transponders are Mod C.

So, anyone who knows this for a fact please bring it up.

Ads
  #42  
Old September 19th 10, 12:09 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 11
Default FLARM Technology for the US Gliding Community

Compared to a standalone PCAS, PowerFLARM has a few things going for
it:

- The other PowerFLARM equipped aircraft will transmit the fact that
it is transponder equipped in its FLARM signal.
PowerFLARM will then attempt a ‘data fusion’ to reduce nuisance
alarms.
The fusion, off course, works best with Mode S transponders…
Once a match between a transponder and a FLARM signal has been made,
the higly accurate FLARM data is used and nuisance alarms are
minimal.

- The PowerFLARM user interface is sophisticated, yet simple.
Suppressing the audio of the PCAS alert is trivial, so you will still
see on the screen that there are transponder A/C equipped aircraft
nearby but it will not constantly beep.

- PowerFLARM can easily be updated through the SD Card / Serial / USB
port. We have provided FREE updates to all devices ever shipped since
2004, vastly improving their performance and features.
So even if we would not get it right at first; dont despair,
complain (to us, not RAS)...

- We are glider pilots and we will make this work for glider pilots as
otherwise we can never again show up on any gliderport, worldwide...

Urs
FLARM
  #43  
Old September 19th 10, 04:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Nadler
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Posts: 1,597
Default FLARM Technology for the US Gliding Community

On Sep 15, 4:20*pm, Ramy wrote:
On Sep 15, 12:19*pm, Andy wrote:



On Sep 15, 11:25*am, Ramy wrote:


We would probably have at east one pilot alive today if the FCC
approved those units earlier.


That seems to assign some blame to FCC.


Why would FCC be expected to approve an equipment for which no
approval application was made. * Why would anyone have made an
approval application for an equipment which was not marketed for use
in USA and prohibited by the manufacture(s) from being used in USA.


For those that think the door will be open to import the older FLARM
units to US and use them without FCC approval, don't forget that the
unit's firmware has an embedded drop dead date. *It would be very easy
for the next firmware cycle to inhibit operation for GPS locations in
USA.


Am I the only one that suspects a large part of the US PowerFLARM cost
is going towards a legal fund?


Andy


You may be right but my point is that, as often the case, we have the
technology (which should normally be the biggest challenge) but it
almost always hampered by paperwork/FCC/FAA/liablity/(name your
favorite bureaucrat agency here).
This is much less so with consumer devices.
I understand this is to prevent chaos, but if so, how come everyone
can mail order an aviation radio and interfere with ATC if they feal
like?

Ramy


As usual, reality is a bit more complicated...
In USA, the power levels allowed on the free-for-all
frequencies are higher than other countries.
That means the background noise level on these
frequencies is higher from other devices.
PowerFLARM has a more powerful
radio transmitter than the classic FLARM, and
is thus is more able to punch through the noise.

So, while a classic FLARM might operate here,
in addition to being illegal it won't work as well.
The other guy *might* hear you...

Hope that helps !
You guys should fly more and speculate less !

See ya, Dave "YO electric"
  #44  
Old September 19th 10, 04:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Nadler
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Posts: 1,597
Default FLARM Technology for the US Gliding Community

On Sep 15, 6:02*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
I anticipate getting one next year, but since I already have a
transponder and MRX, I'm in no great need, so I'll let the other pilots
be the early adopters of the (initially) scarce units.


Eric will thus miss out on the introductory price
for orders placed by year-end...

See ya, Dave "YO electric"
  #45  
Old September 19th 10, 05:28 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy[_1_]
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Posts: 1,565
Default FLARM Technology for the US Gliding Community

On Sep 19, 8:12*am, Dave Nadler wrote:

You guys should fly more and speculate less !

See ya, Dave "YO electric"


There would be no need for "speculation" if there were "specs"

On the one hand we are told US PowerFLARM is the same as "rest of the
world" PowerFLARM except for IGC recorder approval, but now you seem
to be suggesting that US PowerFLARM has different RF specs from the
"rest of the world" PowerFLARM. Maybe the RF TX power is controlled
according to region as determined by GPS position and the RF sections
are identical?

This is the first I have heard about higher RF power output. Up to
now the only information has been that the receiver is more sensitive
than legacy FLARM.

Now I'm going flying - someone has to pull the rope.

Andy (GY)
  #46  
Old September 19th 10, 05:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Nadler
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Posts: 1,597
Default FLARM Technology for the US Gliding Community

On Sep 19, 12:28*pm, Andy wrote:
On Sep 19, 8:12*am, Dave Nadler wrote:

You guys should fly more and speculate less !


See ya, Dave "YO electric"


There would be no need for "speculation" if there were "specs"

On the one hand we are told US PowerFLARM is the same as "rest of the
world" PowerFLARM except for IGC recorder approval, but now you seem
to be suggesting that US PowerFLARM has different RF specs from the
"rest of the world" PowerFLARM. *Maybe the RF TX power is controlled
according to region as determined by GPS position and the RF sections
are identical?

This is the first I have heard about higher RF power output. *Up to
now the only information has been that the receiver is more sensitive
than legacy FLARM.

Now I'm going flying - someone has to pull the rope.

Andy (GY)


As I wrote:
PowerFLARM has a more powerful transmitter
compared to classic FLARM.
Regardless of what country it is sold in.
The more powerful transmitter is needed in USA.

Location-specific behavior is an entirely separate matter:
To meet local requirements, in Europe the transmit power
will be lower than USA, controlled by software (no
hardware difference).

I will add a couple of FAQ entries later...

Glad you've gone flying and stopped speculating ;-)
Best Regards, Dave
  #47  
Old September 19th 10, 08:20 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andrzej Kobus
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 576
Default FLARM Technology for the US Gliding Community

On Sep 19, 7:09*am, " wrote:
Compared to a standalone PCAS, PowerFLARM has a few things going for
it:

- The other PowerFLARM equipped aircraft will transmit the fact that
it is transponder equipped in its FLARM signal.
* PowerFLARM will then attempt a ‘data fusion’ to reduce nuisance
alarms.
* The fusion, off course, works best with Mode S transponders…
* Once a match between a transponder and a FLARM signal has been made,
* the higly accurate FLARM data is used and nuisance alarms are
minimal.

- The PowerFLARM user interface is sophisticated, yet simple.
Suppressing the audio of the PCAS alert is trivial, so you will still
see on the screen that there are transponder A/C equipped aircraft
nearby but it will not constantly beep.

- PowerFLARM can easily be updated through the SD Card / Serial / USB
port. We have provided FREE updates to all devices ever shipped since
2004, vastly improving their performance and features.
* So even if we would not get it right at first; dont despair,
complain (to us, not RAS)...

- We are glider pilots and we will make this work for glider pilots as
otherwise we can never again show up on any gliderport, worldwide...

Urs
FLARM


Ability to switch off the noise is a good start. I hope the same will
be true for voice synthesizer (in respect to PCAS) when it becomes
available. If that is the case you got one more customer.
  #48  
Old September 19th 10, 10:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,096
Default FLARM Technology for the US Gliding Community

On 9/19/2010 8:13 AM, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Sep 15, 6:02 pm, Eric wrote:

I anticipate getting one next year, but since I already have a
transponder and MRX, I'm in no great need, so I'll let the other pilots
be the early adopters of the (initially) scarce units.

Eric will thus miss out on the introductory price
for orders placed by year-end...


I do have a ping set in my calendar for late December ... ;-)

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (netto to net to email me)

- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

  #49  
Old September 20th 10, 02:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Nadler
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,597
Default FLARM Technology for the US Gliding Community

I've added a couple of FAQ entries and
edited the comparison table.
Hopefully this becomes a bit clearer...
Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"

http://www.gliderpilot.org/FLARM
http://www.gliderpilot.org/FlarmFAQ
http://www.gliderpilot.org/FLARM-Comparisons
 




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