"Seeking Foreign Buyers For Osprey"

BlackBeard wrote:
On Jun 13, 7:55 pm, Vince wrote:
don't worry these china dolls will be kept very far from any real combat.

Vince


Please clarify "china doll."

As we use the term it applies to the fragility or lack of
survivability of the platform. Are you now insinuating you know
anything about it's combat survivability/susceptibility?

Just wondering, because I know that most details of S/S for this
platform are classified. And I don't remember you being present
during the seven years I was involved with testing those specific
systems.

BB

It will be kept far from anything that might scratch its paint
this turkey is a political airplane.
It has no clear "combat" mission in Iraq

The problems of the V-22 are in its fundamental design. It uses heavy
lift horsepower at ultra heavy cost to pick up medium lift cargo which
must also fit in its small cabin through a rear door.

it's a one trick pony, it's faster in horizontal flight. But tis still
a truck


Vince

It will be kept far from anything that might scratch its paint
this turkey is a political airplane.
It has no clear "combat" mission in Iraq

Wonderful, the "Prince Harry" of military a/c!!!

Rob

On Jun 14, 4:28 am, Vince wrote:
BlackBeard wrote:
On Jun 13, 7:55 pm, Vince wrote:
don't worry these china dolls will be kept very far from any real combat.

Vince

Please clarify "china doll."

As we use the term it applies to the fragility or lack of
survivability of the platform. Are you now insinuating you know
anything about it's combat survivability/susceptibility?

Just wondering, because I know that most details of S/S for this
platform are classified. And I don't remember you being present
during the seven years I was involved with testing those specific
systems.

BB

It will be kept far from anything that might scratch its paint
this turkey is a political airplane.
It has no clear "combat" mission in Iraq

The problems of the V-22 are in its fundamental design. It uses heavy
lift horsepower at ultra heavy cost to pick up medium lift cargo which
must also fit in its small cabin through a rear door.


The entire aft opens up similar to the C-130.

BB

I guess everybody has some mountain to climb.
It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet...

BlackBeard wrote:
On Jun 14, 4:28 am, Vince wrote:
BlackBeard wrote:
On Jun 13, 7:55 pm, Vince wrote:
don't worry these china dolls will be kept very far from any real combat.
Vince
Please clarify "china doll."
As we use the term it applies to the fragility or lack of
survivability of the platform. Are you now insinuating you know
anything about it's combat survivability/susceptibility?
Just wondering, because I know that most details of S/S for this
platform are classified. And I don't remember you being present
during the seven years I was involved with testing those specific
systems.
BB
It will be kept far from anything that might scratch its paint
this turkey is a political airplane.
It has no clear "combat" mission in Iraq

The problems of the V-22 are in its fundamental design. It uses heavy
lift horsepower at ultra heavy cost to pick up medium lift cargo which
must also fit in its small cabin through a rear door.


The entire aft opens up similar to the C-130.



The door doesn't increase the size of the cabin...

IIRC they need a custom vehicle designed to pull any heavy equipment the
Marines might try to use because the cabin is so small..

Is it really only 68 inches wide, and 66.23 inches high?

That certainly counts as a small cabin..

Heck, two fully equipped Marines are going to have some trouble getting
through side by side at the same time... (Equipped with MGs, ATGW, one
shot AT weapons etc...

Kerryn Offord wrote:
BlackBeard wrote:
On Jun 14, 4:28 am, Vince wrote:
BlackBeard wrote:
On Jun 13, 7:55 pm, Vince wrote:
don't worry these china dolls will be kept very far from any real
combat.
Vince
Please clarify "china doll."
As we use the term it applies to the fragility or lack of
survivability of the platform. Are you now insinuating you know
anything about it's combat survivability/susceptibility?
Just wondering, because I know that most details of S/S for this
platform are classified. And I don't remember you being present
during the seven years I was involved with testing those specific
systems.
BB
It will be kept far from anything that might scratch its paint
this turkey is a political airplane.
It has no clear "combat" mission in Iraq

The problems of the V-22 are in its fundamental design. It uses heavy
lift horsepower at ultra heavy cost to pick up medium lift cargo which
must also fit in its small cabin through a rear door.


The entire aft opens up similar to the C-130.



The door doesn't increase the size of the cabin...

IIRC they need a custom vehicle designed to pull any heavy equipment the
Marines might try to use because the cabin is so small..

Is it really only 68 inches wide, and 66.23 inches high?

That certainly counts as a small cabin..

Heck, two fully equipped Marines are going to have some trouble getting
through side by side at the same time... (Equipped with MGs, ATGW, one
shot AT weapons etc...

they have noticed that

Vince

Vince wrote:

they have noticed that

What they should have noticed is how that side-by-side rotor layout
causes sand and dust to rise around the fuselage during landing,
blinding the pilot.
That problem should have been noticed back in the XV-15 days:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_XV-15

Pat

On Jun 15, 11:47 am, Pat Flannery wrote:
Vince wrote:

they have noticed that

What they should have noticed is how that side-by-side rotor layout
causes sand and dust to rise around the fuselage during landing,
blinding the pilot.

This differs from any other rotary wing craft how?

"5/9/2007 - EGLIN AIR FORCE BASE, Fla. -- The Air Force Research
Laboratory Rapid Reaction Team has successfully integrated and tested
a science and technology solution to the Air Force Special Operation
Command helicopter brownout problem.

In late 2005, Lt. Gen. Michael Wooley, AFSOC commander, asked the AFRL
commander to find a solution to a problem that is killing his Airmen
-- rotary wing brownouts.

More than 30 AFSOC rotary wing aircraft and 60 servicemembers have
lost their lives due to reduced visibility conditions during landing
in desert environments. Many of the aircraft losses have been
attributed to a condition that helicopter pilots refer to as
"brownout."

"Brownout conditions occur during landing and take-offs from sand or
dirt. The sand and dirt is blown up off the ground and blinds the
helicopter pilots to the surrounding area, much like being in a
whiteout during a blizzard," said Eric Werkowitz, the effort's program
manager who is from the Munitions Directorate here. "

BB

I guess everybody has some mountain to climb.
It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet...

BlackBeard wrote:
On Jun 15, 11:47 am, Pat Flannery wrote:
Vince wrote:

they have noticed that
What they should have noticed is how that side-by-side rotor layout
causes sand and dust to rise around the fuselage during landing,
blinding the pilot.

This differs from any other rotary wing craft how?

very very high disk loading with yaw effects


6. HIGH DOWNWASH VELOCITY

Because of the high disk-loading of V-22, the downwash velocity is about
twice that of any conventional helicopter, and because of the
side-by-side placement of the prop-rotors there are two distinct
downwash wakes that are transverse to the flight direction. This has
several operational implications that bear on safety issues. The most
critical one, I believe, is the effects of downwash on landings at night
in a desert environment – a challenge in any helicopter, but more
difficult, and potentially dangerous, in the V-22.

http://www.g2mil.com/V-22safety.htm

Vince wrote:
Kerryn Offord wrote:
BlackBeard wrote:
On Jun 14, 4:28 am, Vince wrote:
BlackBeard wrote:
On Jun 13, 7:55 pm, Vince wrote:
don't worry these china dolls will be kept very far from any real
combat.
Vince
Please clarify "china doll."
As we use the term it applies to the fragility or lack of
survivability of the platform. Are you now insinuating you know
anything about it's combat survivability/susceptibility?
Just wondering, because I know that most details of S/S for this
platform are classified. And I don't remember you being present
during the seven years I was involved with testing those specific
systems.
BB
It will be kept far from anything that might scratch its paint
this turkey is a political airplane.
It has no clear "combat" mission in Iraq

The problems of the V-22 are in its fundamental design. It uses heavy
lift horsepower at ultra heavy cost to pick up medium lift cargo which
must also fit in its small cabin through a rear door.


The entire aft opens up similar to the C-130.



The door doesn't increase the size of the cabin...

IIRC they need a custom vehicle designed to pull any heavy equipment
the Marines might try to use because the cabin is so small..

Is it really only 68 inches wide, and 66.23 inches high?

That certainly counts as a small cabin..

Heck, two fully equipped Marines are going to have some trouble
getting through side by side at the same time... (Equipped with MGs,
ATGW, one shot AT weapons etc...

they have noticed that

Vince

Is it really that bad? I realize they have to bend over to "walk" out
(66.23 inches high is below average height), but can they walk side by
side or do they have to depart single file?

Kerryn Offord wrote:
Vince wrote:
Kerryn Offord wrote:
BlackBeard wrote:
On Jun 14, 4:28 am, Vince wrote:
BlackBeard wrote:
On Jun 13, 7:55 pm, Vince wrote:
don't worry these china dolls will be kept very far from any real
combat.
Vince
Please clarify "china doll."
As we use the term it applies to the fragility or lack of
survivability of the platform. Are you now insinuating you know
anything about it's combat survivability/susceptibility?
Just wondering, because I know that most details of S/S for this
platform are classified. And I don't remember you being present
during the seven years I was involved with testing those specific
systems.
BB
It will be kept far from anything that might scratch its paint
this turkey is a political airplane.
It has no clear "combat" mission in Iraq

The problems of the V-22 are in its fundamental design. It uses heavy
lift horsepower at ultra heavy cost to pick up medium lift cargo which
must also fit in its small cabin through a rear door.


The entire aft opens up similar to the C-130.



The door doesn't increase the size of the cabin...

IIRC they need a custom vehicle designed to pull any heavy equipment
the Marines might try to use because the cabin is so small..

Is it really only 68 inches wide, and 66.23 inches high?

That certainly counts as a small cabin..

Heck, two fully equipped Marines are going to have some trouble
getting through side by side at the same time... (Equipped with MGs,
ATGW, one shot AT weapons etc...

they have noticed that

Vince

Is it really that bad? I realize they have to bend over to "walk" out
(66.23 inches high is below average height), but can they walk side by
side or do they have to depart single file?


a Marine I talked to said that in combat gear with helmets on it's a
sort of alternating single file crouch walk from the seat to the door.
its tighter than single file but you have to avoid getting entangled.

Vince