PowerFLARM bundled display

On Nov 10, 2:04*pm, Andy wrote:
On Nov 10, 2:02*pm, Whiskey Delta wrote:

*I'm torn between *the two options at the moment. *

Me too. * I wonder when the user manuals, installation manuals, and
data port specifications will be available. Probably not until
deliveries start and that would be long after the preferential pricing
ends.

My next questions relate to the functionality and user interfaces of
bundled display and portable options:

Is the on-screen data presentation identical? If not, how is it
different?

Is the user interface identical? If not, how is it different? *It
appears that the user controls are not the same on the portable unit
as on the rectangular Butterfly display.

I also wonder if the bundled Butterfly display has embedded firmware
and, if so, how is that firmware updated if needed for future
functionality.

Andy

The (German) Butterfly Display manual on the support page I gave the
link to mentions updating the display firmware. And the same support
page I gave a link to contains existing Butterfly Flarm display update
software that users install themselves.

At some point you have to stop worrying about every little possible
problem and trust that two companies (Flarm and Butterfly) that have
been doing this stuff for years are going to get us a usable product.

Darryl

On Nov 10, 3:35*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Nov 10, 2:04*pm, Andy wrote:





On Nov 10, 2:02*pm, Whiskey Delta wrote:

*I'm torn between *the two options at the moment. *

Me too. * I wonder when the user manuals, installation manuals, and
data port specifications will be available. Probably not until
deliveries start and that would be long after the preferential pricing
ends.

My next questions relate to the functionality and user interfaces of
bundled display and portable options:

Is the on-screen data presentation identical? If not, how is it
different?

Is the user interface identical? If not, how is it different? *It
appears that the user controls are not the same on the portable unit
as on the rectangular Butterfly display.

I also wonder if the bundled Butterfly display has embedded firmware
and, if so, how is that firmware updated if needed for future
functionality.

Andy

The (German) Butterfly Display manual on the support page I gave the
link to mentions updating the display firmware. And the same support
page I gave a link to contains existing Butterfly Flarm display update
software that users install themselves.

At some point you have to stop worrying about every little possible
problem and trust that two companies (Flarm and Butterfly) that have
been doing this stuff for years are going to get us a usable product.

Darryl- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sorry I don't read German. If you do perhaps you can provide a
translation on the display firmware update sections. I don't plan to
wade through a crude on-line translation of the whole website in the
hope it may include the information I seek. I am familiar with how to
update the existing FLARM as the manuals are available in English. I
would hope any firmware update to the display is handled by the FLARM
host in much the same way as the Garmin 396/496 updates the attached
XM antenna receiver/processor.

That there will be a usable product at some time was not the subject
of my questions. I was asking about details that would perhaps allow
a more educated choice between two offered and presumably both usable
options. You didn't offer an answer to those questions.

Which PowerFLARM configuration did you choose and what were the
factors you considered? For me the portable seems too big for the
glider and the blind unit appears be too awkward to swap between the
glider and the power plane.

Maybe I need option three which is a smaller portable unit that does
not include batteries and charger. Perhaps that would be a blind unit
that is designed to match the outline of the remote display and hard
mates with it to form an integrated unit when needed to be portable.

Andy

On Nov 10, 3:38 pm, Andy wrote:
On Nov 10, 3:35 pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:



On Nov 10, 2:04 pm, Andy wrote:

On Nov 10, 2:02 pm, Whiskey Delta wrote:

I'm torn between the two options at the moment.

Me too. I wonder when the user manuals, installation manuals, and
data port specifications will be available. Probably not until
deliveries start and that would be long after the preferential pricing
ends.

My next questions relate to the functionality and user interfaces of
bundled display and portable options:

Is the on-screen data presentation identical? If not, how is it
different?

Is the user interface identical? If not, how is it different? It
appears that the user controls are not the same on the portable unit
as on the rectangular Butterfly display.

I also wonder if the bundled Butterfly display has embedded firmware
and, if so, how is that firmware updated if needed for future
functionality.

Andy

The (German) Butterfly Display manual on the support page I gave the
link to mentions updating the display firmware. And the same support
page I gave a link to contains existing Butterfly Flarm display update
software that users install themselves.

At some point you have to stop worrying about every little possible
problem and trust that two companies (Flarm and Butterfly) that have
been doing this stuff for years are going to get us a usable product.

Darryl- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sorry I don't read German. If you do perhaps you can provide a
translation on the display firmware update sections. I don't plan to
wade through a crude on-line translation of the whole website in the
hope it may include the information I seek. I am familiar with how to
update the existing FLARM as the manuals are available in English. I
would hope any firmware update to the display is handled by the FLARM
host in much the same way as the Garmin 396/496 updates the attached
XM antenna receiver/processor.

That there will be a usable product at some time was not the subject
of my questions. I was asking about details that would perhaps allow
a more educated choice between two offered and presumably both usable
options. You didn't offer an answer to those questions.

Which PowerFLARM configuration did you choose and what were the
factors you considered? For me the portable seems too big for the
glider and the blind unit appears be too awkward to swap between the
glider and the power plane.

Maybe I need option three which is a smaller portable unit that does
not include batteries and charger. Perhaps that would be a blind unit
that is designed to match the outline of the remote display and hard
mates with it to form an integrated unit when needed to be portable.

Andy

I was answering what I knew about. But my comments on needing to trust
these folks a bit likely applies to your other question. Butterfly
does Flarm displays, that's their bread and butter. AFAIK they've done
the display work in the portable unit, and the Flarm guys focus more
on the back-end. I would not lose sleep on whether they are going to
ship a brick unit that was missing anything important that you could
do/configure on the PowerFLARM portable.

The manual just says you update it with a cable and software. I though
your main concern might have been of its upgradeable by users at all,
and I was just pointing out Butterfly already do this. You can try
launching the update software on their support site if you want a feel
for what that looks like today.

I chose the brick. The portable is a bit too big to fit on the sloped
side of the glareshield on my ASH-26E. And yes I used my "build your
own paper PowerFLARM" (http://www.darryl-ramm.com/2010/08/build-your-
own-powerflarm-paper-model/) to decide this. Unfortunately the large
ILEC engine controller takes a lot of space on Schleicher motorglider
panels, otherwise it would have been a no-brainer for me to just go
with the nice finished install look of the round 57mm display. I had
initially wanted a portable unit to use in my own glider and then also
use that when flying other gliders, but it looks like all the other
gliders I would usually rent (Williams' ASK-21s, Duo Discus, and
hopefully the ASH-25) are already getting PowerFLARM installed in
them.

So I'm still undecided on round or rectangular display, maybe the
rectangular one using that mount I gave the link to and use it for a
while and then install the round one after I do some other panel
changes. Not sure. I have a while to decide. Part of that is also
related to whether I want to swap my C302 for a LX USB-D/1606, try out
some new other toys etc. And I hope there might be enough "slop" in
the market with people changing their minds with Flarm Butterfly
displays that some swapping/trade-ins through my dealer will be
possible if I change my mind on this even after it is delivered. I'll
be asking my dealer this questions at the time I need to decide.

Some feedback from a USA pilot who flew the Butterfly Flarm displays
in Europe recently was they were somewhat sensitive to polarized
sunglasses (I fly with those) but worked in their normal horizontal
orientations - which may mean if you also wear polarized sunglasses to
do this the vertical orientations of the rectangular displays won't
work for you. The displays were daylight viewable but (naturally) did
better under a glareshield).

What is impressive is that Flarm and Butterfly listened to feedback
largely from the USA glider pilot community the need for the "brick"
unit and responded quickly, changing plans to do a simultaneous
release of both products - as I understand it that is a large part of
the reason for the slippage from December to April. But by doing
things like FCC approval for both models together helped make this
more practical and affordable for them (and therefore us).

I agree with WD that a SD card slot on the round display would have
been nice, but the current display packaging was designed before this
and the brick packaging is a later response to pilot feedback. You
would also need a USB or similar link from a Flarm unit to do this and
no Flarm units had that. The current headless Flarm boxes either have
no SD card slot at all of like LX's Red Box provide their had their
own remote SD card slot already.

Given the effort required to change any packaging I'd not wait for
anything beyond the current announced portable or brick packaging.

Darryl

On Nov 10, 8:00*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Nov 10, 3:38 pm, Andy wrote:
...

I agree with WD that a SD card slot on the round display would have
been nice, but the current display packaging was designed before this
and the brick packaging is a later response to pilot feedback. You
would also need a USB or similar link from a Flarm unit to do this and
no Flarm units had that. The current headless Flarm boxes either have
no SD card slot at all *of like LX's Red Box provide their had their
own remote SD card slot already.
...

Darryl

I agree, too, but many (all?) PDAs are capable of downloading flights
from and declaring tasks to the FLARM unit if they are connected.

-- Matt

On Nov 11, 7:17*am, mattm wrote:
On Nov 10, 8:00*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:

On Nov 10, 3:38 pm, Andy wrote:
...

I agree with WD that a SD card slot on the round display would have
been nice, but the current display packaging was designed before this
and the brick packaging is a later response to pilot feedback. You
would also need a USB or similar link from a Flarm unit to do this and
no Flarm units had that. The current headless Flarm boxes either have
no SD card slot at all *of like LX's Red Box provide their had their
own remote SD card slot already.
...

Darryl

I agree, too, but many (all?) PDAs are capable of downloading flights
from and declaring tasks to the FLARM unit if they are connected.

-- Matt

The SD card in a Flarm has had more use than that and I expect
PowerFLARM to be the same, including managing the device config data.
Otherwise you need to use a PC tool to config these systems. And PDA
software can also support displaying Flarm traffic but none of it
really lets you manage the Flarm unit like you do with the Flarm PC
tool and/or SD card.

With the PowerFLARM brick I expect many pilots will want to find space
on your panel to mount the USB port even if they also download IGC
files with a PDA.

Darryl

On Nov 10, 6:00*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Given the effort required to change any packaging I'd not wait for
anything beyond the current announced portable or brick packaging.

Given the new information that the external display/controller is just
the same as the front of the protable unit it would not be much of a
stretch to have the undefined brick mate with it to form an integrated
unit when needed.

I'd even suggest a battery module could optionally be part of the
stack.

Andy

On Nov 11, 10:43*am, Andy wrote:
On Nov 10, 6:00*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:

Given the effort required to change any packaging I'd not wait for
anything beyond the current announced portable or brick packaging.

Given the new information that the external display/controller is just
the same as the front of the protable unit it would not be much of a
stretch to have the undefined brick mate with it to form an integrated
unit when needed.

I'd even suggest a battery module could optionally be part of the
stack.

Andy

My understanding (from Urs @ Flarm) is the brick will use a generic
looking metal package. The reason for that is undoubtedly production
costs and the ability to use relatively low cost off the shelf
housing. There are significant design and tooling costs in injection
moulding and significant effort needed to develop and debug this to
get good production grade plastics (something I've unfortunately had
to deal with for computer products). So again I would not hold my
breath for lots of packaging variants or changes. And personally for a
headless unit I would much prefer a metal case.

Of course it may be possible to duck taping together the external
rectangular display, metal brick and a home made battery pack and
putting it on their glareshield :-)


Darryl

On 11/11/2010 7:32 AM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
With the PowerFLARM brick I expect many pilots will want to find space
on your panel to mount the USB port even if they also download IGC
files with a PDA.

Since you would use the USB port only on the ground, it doesn't have to
take up precious panel space: it can be mounted on the underside of the
instrument pod that goes up with canopy on many gliders, and even on
those gliders it doesn't. DG pilots could mount it on the side or back
of their fixed pods.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)

- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz