If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....

From: (Grantland)
?

Take a look at Haiti. In his "I Have a Dream" speech Dr. King said:
"I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation
where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the
content of their character." Yes. Subhumans. Forget about skin
color.

Grantland

Speaking of subhumans have you any military experience at all?

Having a father who let you on the flightline doesn't count.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Subject: If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....
From: (B2431)
Date: 2/28/04 10:23 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

From: (Grantland)
?

Take a look at Haiti. In his "I Have a Dream" speech Dr. King said:
"I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation
where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the
content of their character." Yes. Subhumans. Forget about skin
color.

Grantland

Speaking of subhumans have you any military experience at all?

Having a father who let you on the flightline doesn't count.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


There are all too many of those.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

In article ,
Andrew Chaplin wrote:
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN wrote:

Having heard the descriptions of that war from my father (coast defence
during summer 1940, including Cromwell,

What sort of coast defence organization was your father in, Andy?

(Drifting OT for here, maybe - we may need to go to smn)
Informal might be the word - he was doing the telegrapher's course
at Skegness (AKA HMS ROYAL ARTHUR, AKA the Butlins' camp) but the
course doubled as coast defence up to Ingoldmells point. When he
first got there they had Martini-Henries. By the time Cromwell
was called they had the long Lee-Enfield (but SMLE ammunition)
and a Maxim gun that with care would fire 10 rounds before jamming.
They were led by the senior PO in charge of drill for the course,
who had been at the Dardenelles. They would have fought if the landings
had happened.
A few years ago a friend and I went to Ingoldmells on the anniverary
of Cromwell and drank toasts to those who had been there that day and
survived the war - and poured libations to those who didn't. Time, maybe,
we did it again.


--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)

(B2431) wrote:

From: (Grantland)
?

Take a look at Haiti. In his "I Have a Dream" speech Dr. King said:
"I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation
where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the
content of their character." Yes. Subhumans. Forget about skin
color.

Grantland

Speaking of subhumans have you any military experience at all?

Having a father who let you on the flightline doesn't count.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Lieutenant, SADF. Army.

Grantland

On 28 Feb 2004 18:21:41 GMT, 362436 (Ron) wrote:

My last day on active duty at Ft. Knox in 1984, I was walking out of
the US Army Armor and Engineer Board, on the way to drive to the
Officer's Club for a last drink with a friend. An old guy and his
wife (he thought I was an EM because he didn't recognize subdued
insignia) asked me to take a picture of him in front of a static
monument armored vehicle. It turned out that he'd been in the
Philippines in December 1941 in a National Guard tank batallion.
Really nice old guy, and pretty cheerful for somebody who survived the
Bataan Death March....


There were many from here in New Mexico that were at Bataan. NM had a large
number of people there, because of the guard units that were sent there.

There were contingents from west-central Ohio too. If I'm not
mistaken, the drill hall on the Camp Perry training facility (where
the National Shooting Matches are held) is called the Bataan hall. I
think some of the tankers came from Port Clinton, and or Fremont.

Also, if you've read Heinlein's "Starship Troopers", the troopship the
"Roger Young" is named after an Ohio guardsman, who was killed on New
Guinea(?). If I remember correctly, the guard armory in Fremont is
named after him.

A big uproar happened a couple years ago, when some leftist hippy peace group
wanted to put a memorial up in Santa Fe for the Japanese, and the Bataan
survivors were none too happy about that. I do not think the memorial ended up
being built.

There's always somebody who'd rather honor Charlie Manson than Sharon
Tate.



--
More blood for oil... in my name!

On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 16:59:02 GMT, (Grantland)
wrote:

Christopher Morton wrote:

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:46:50 -0600, "D. Strang"
wrote:

"ArtKramr" wrote

As Colin Powell said:

"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and
well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National
Guard units... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class
discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all
Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."
"
Only a black man would think like that.

or have reason to?

Take a look at Haiti. In his "I Have a Dream" speech Dr. King said:

Look at Bosnia, or Kosovo, or Germany between 1933 and 1945, or Russia
from 1917 until 1991.

Scumbags will be scumbags, regardless of race, religion or ethnicity.

--
More blood for oil... in my name!

On 28 Feb 2004 11:52:22 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Gavin,

The USSBS was an economic analysis of STRATEGIC bombing. That is heavy bombers
working from 22,000 feet under very difficult conditions. We were tactical
bombers, medium bombers working from 8-10,000 feet which gave us near point
blank accuracy.

Arthur,

I'm well aware of the distinction between strategic and tactical
bombing, and the institutional bias of the USSBS. I've posted myself
on the excellent record of the US tactical air forces in WW2, but I'm
not going to feel compelled to repeat that here out of any misguided
sense of defensiveness.

A totally different set of conditions than the strategic
operations., When a target ABSOLUTELY MUST BE TAKEN OUT NOW, THEY DIDN'T SEND
IN B-17'S WORKING FROM 22,000 FEET. THEY SENT IN MARAUDERS FROM 10,000 FEET.

That must explain why Eaker sent the B-26's of the 9th AF to attack
Schweinfurt in August 1943 when the B-17's failed to destroy it.
Thanks for providing me with a convenient example of your own lack of
objectivity and proportion, though.

The reality is that USAAF targets, except in limited periods such as
Overlord, were not allocated away from the strategic forces to the
tactical forces on any kind of priority, let alone chronological
priority. That you think so is instructive, however.

Any time anyone takes the USSBS report and paints all of bombing in WW II with
that ECONOMIC report you know you are talking to someone with zero knowledge
of bombing in WWII.

Good that I hadn't mentioned it and that you decided to bring your own
straw man to the thread. Which allows me to demonstrate one of your
more unpleasant and demeaning usenet characteristics without having to
exert much effort to do so.

Just a wannabee wirth a big mouth and zero understanding
of tactical bombing operations in WW II. And it is well known that the B-26
Marauders ended up with the most accurate bombing record in WWII in USAAC
operations. So when someone places the USSBS and Marauders in the same
sentence, you know you are talking to a total fraud and most probably somone
with near zero actual combat experience in the air..

You mean like you just did?

And while I'm out of your kill-file and you seem enthused enough to
address your own contradictions on such subjects, please remind me of
your personal experience of Geoffrey Chaucer. Or feel free to run
away from that one again if you prefer. I used to think you behaved
like that online for laugh, but I must admit I'm starting to think you
actually aren't that far removed from the more unpleasant side of your
usenet persona. Pity.

Gavin Bailey

Subject: If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....
From: Presidente Alcazar
Date: 2/28/04 11:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

On 28 Feb 2004 11:52:22 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Gavin,

The USSBS was an economic analysis of STRATEGIC bombing. That is heavy
bombers
working from 22,000 feet under very difficult conditions. We were tactical
bombers, medium bombers working from 8-10,000 feet which gave us near
point
blank accuracy.

Arthur,

I'm well aware of the distinction between strategic and tactical
bombing, and the institutional bias of the USSBS. I've posted myself
on the excellent record of the US tactical air forces in WW2, but I'm
not going to feel compelled to repeat that here out of any misguided
sense of defensiveness.

A totally different set of conditions than the strategic
operations., When a target ABSOLUTELY MUST BE TAKEN OUT NOW, THEY DIDN'T
SEND
IN B-17'S WORKING FROM 22,000 FEET. THEY SENT IN MARAUDERS FROM 10,000
FEET.

That must explain why Eaker sent the B-26's of the 9th AF to attack
Schweinfurt in August 1943 when the B-17's failed to destroy it.
Thanks for providing me with a convenient example of your own lack of
objectivity and proportion, though.

The reality is that USAAF targets, except in limited periods such as
Overlord, were not allocated away from the strategic forces to the
tactical forces on any kind of priority, let alone chronological
priority. That you think so is instructive, however.

Any time anyone takes the USSBS report and paints all of bombing in WW II
with
that ECONOMIC report you know you are talking to someone with zero
knowledge
of bombing in WWII.

Good that I hadn't mentioned it and that you decided to bring your own
straw man to the thread. Which allows me to demonstrate one of your
more unpleasant and demeaning usenet characteristics without having to
exert much effort to do so.

Just a wannabee wirth a big mouth and zero understanding
of tactical bombing operations in WW II. And it is well known that the B-26
Marauders ended up with the most accurate bombing record in WWII in USAAC
operations. So when someone places the USSBS and Marauders in the same
sentence, you know you are talking to a total fraud and most probably somone
with near zero actual combat experience in the air..

You mean like you just did?

And while I'm out of your kill-file and you seem enthused enough to
address your own contradictions on such subjects, please remind me of
your personal experience of Geoffrey Chaucer. Or feel free to run
away from that one again if you prefer. I used to think you behaved
like that online for laugh, but I must admit I'm starting to think you
actually aren't that far removed from the more unpleasant side of your
usenet persona. Pity.

Gavin Bailey



PLONK!
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Christopher Morton wrote:

On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 16:59:02 GMT, (Grantland)
wrote:

Christopher Morton wrote:

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:46:50 -0600, "D. Strang"
wrote:

"ArtKramr" wrote

As Colin Powell said:

"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and
well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National
Guard units... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class
discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all
Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."
"
Only a black man would think like that.

or have reason to?

Take a look at Haiti. In his "I Have a Dream" speech Dr. King said:

Look at Bosnia, or Kosovo, or Germany between 1933 and 1945, or Russia
from 1917 until 1991.

Scumbags will be scumbags, regardless of race, religion or ethnicity.

Homo sapiens has a mean iq of 70. That's the fact.

Grantland

(ArtKramr) wrote:
(B2431) wrote:

Speaking of subhumans have you any military experience at all?

Having a father who let you on the flightline doesn't count.

What do you think this is...your local VFW watering hole chit chat
message board? As an A&P mechanic I've overhauled military
jet engines in civilian shops which, in addition to having a really
cool Dad who let me on the flightline (jealous R U), counts for just
as much and is a heck of a lot more interesting than your plain jane
mediocre military career.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Are we supposed to be impressed?

There are all too many of those.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but military retirees such as mechanics,
supply clerks, bombardiers, navigators, engineers, fighter pilots,
WSO's, helicopter and cargo pilots and co-pilots etc. etc. are a dime
a dozen, too.