A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Aerobatics
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Thanks for the Spins Rich



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old October 14th 03, 05:01 AM
Flynn
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

One of these days, I'm going for a ride in a Stearman or Waco.....Got to do
it.

"David B. Cole" wrote in message
m...
Patrick,

I've already put my name on the list for next year's seminar here in
NJ, but I may just have to take a trip to CA to spend a few days there
with Rich. In the meantime there is a guy here in NJ that does
aerobatics and one of the planes he has is a Stearman, which I would
love to fly. He was featured in AOPA Pilot a couple of months ago in
the issue where they highlighted Philly in preparation for the Expo.

Dave

"Flynn" wrote in message

news:[email protected]
Great write up. I took a 3-day, 5 mission EMT course based on Rich's

work
down in Arizona this spring and went to a WINGS seminar that Rich did

this
fall. I completely agree that this is some of the best $ spent after

the
private lessons. I came away feeling much more in control of the

airplane
and with significantly enhanced understanding of what it means to fly.

And...aerobatics are sooo much fun.!

Fly safe and fly fast!

--
Patrick Flynn
Sammamish, WA
Cirrus SR22 N6099Z KRNT


"David B. Cole" wrote in message
m...
Today I had an opportunity to fly with Rich Stowell as part of his
annual Emergency Maneuver Training Clinic in NJ. Yesterday we
experienced low viz and fairly low ceilings the entire day with even
worse forecast for today, so it didn't look good for us. But today
turned out to be an almost perfect Fall day with temperatures in the
high 60's to lower 70's.

Much snipped

Dave



Ads
  #12  
Old October 14th 03, 04:05 PM
David B. Cole
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Yep, I've already checked them out. Remember I sent you their link a
few months ago when I first started to look for local aerobatic
operations?

Dave

Andrew Gideon wrote in message agonline.com...
David B. Cole wrote:

Patrick,

I've already put my name on the list for next year's seminar here in
NJ, but I may just have to take a trip to CA to spend a few days there
with Rich. In the meantime there is a guy here in NJ that does
aerobatics and one of the planes he has is a Stearman, which I would
love to fly. He was featured in AOPA Pilot a couple of months ago in
the issue where they highlighted Philly in preparation for the Expo.

Dave


Here?

http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pi...8.html#vansant

But that's a PA location, no? Still, it doesn't appear to be too far beyond
Pittstown. Here's more on what they offer the

http://www.vansantairport.com/aeroap.html

But the best part...they actually seem to *rent* the Stearman.

- Andrew

  #13  
Old October 15th 03, 08:23 PM
Rich Stowell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Kevin Horton wrote in message ...
On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 20:00:31 -0700, David B. Cole wrote:


After takeoff we
climbed to about 4000' to do some dutch rolls. Initially I was a little
timid with the ailerons, but eventually got it together although my feet
were still slower than I would have liked. After the dutch rolls we
moved on to a few power-off stalls. Again, you have to be on your toes
as the nose has more of a tendency than the 172 to drop off to either
side if you're too slow on the rudder.


Great write up.

One very small nit to pick - I know a lot of people think a dutch roll is
a manoeuvre where the pilot it actively making the aircraft roll back
and forth around a point. But the term properly means a combined yawing
and rolling oscillation that the aircraft does all by itself.

It is hard to have clear communication when we have words that
mean different things to different people.

For a rant on the mis-use of the term dutch roll, see:
http://www.douglasdc3.com/sohn/41.htm

For what Bill Kershner thinks about it:
http://pulsar.westmont.edu/aeronca/d...ques/0080.html

For descriptions of what dutch roll is:
http://www.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk/aeroxtra/dtcstab7.htm
http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/equilib.html

And to show that dutch roll is not just an issue with swept-wing jets:
http://www.berkutengineering.com/pag...rtav898-3.html



Hi Kevin,

Pilots picking nits? Who would have guessed ; )

The English language is very colorful, and many terms have multiple
meanings depending on the context. In the context of the aerobatic
environment, Dutch Roll (note the capitalization, which is customary
in this context) is well understood by aerobatic pilots to describe a
specific coordination maneuver as opposed to the inherent instability
dutch roll common in swept wing aircraft.

While it is true that sometimes the use of certain terms can lead to
confusion, we nevertheless frequently use terminology that has
multiple meanings. For example, ask the airline pilot who is strapping
into his aerobatic mount on his day off from his flying job to explain
and perform a Dutch Roll, and he will know exactly what is being asked
of him. However, ask him to define dutch roll while he's at 35,000
feet in the left seat of his airliner, and he'll likely delve into the
aerodynamic issues involved with dutch roll instability.

Yes, context is important; but to imply that a particlar phrase or
word can and must have one and only one meaning might be a fruitless
exercise indeed! Consider the following:

We'd have to find another word for "stall" since it means something
totally different to me when I'm in my car versus when I'm in my
airplane (and there are far more drivers than pilots, so we'd probably
lose the battle for exclusive use of that term);

We'd have to find another name for "flaps" because, frankly, they
don't;

The "elevator" does not elevate;

"Adding more throttle" or "increasing throttle" doesn't throttle
anything;

"Snap Rolls" have nothing to do with the roll control.

Anyone want to add to this list?

Rich
http://www.richstowell.com
  #14  
Old October 15th 03, 09:04 PM
Kevin Horton
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 13:23:12 -0700, Rich Stowell wrote:

Kevin Horton wrote in message
...

One very small nit to pick - I know a lot of people think a dutch roll
is a manoeuvre where the pilot it actively making the aircraft roll back
and forth around a point. But the term properly means a combined yawing
and rolling oscillation that the aircraft does all by itself.

It is hard to have clear communication when we have words that mean
different things to different people.

For a rant on the mis-use of the term dutch roll, see:
http://www.douglasdc3.com/sohn/41.htm


Hi Kevin,

Pilots picking nits? Who would have guessed ; )

The English language is very colorful, and many terms have multiple
meanings depending on the context. In the context of the aerobatic
environment, Dutch Roll (note the capitalization, which is customary in
this context) is well understood by aerobatic pilots to describe a
specific coordination maneuver as opposed to the inherent instability
dutch roll common in swept wing aircraft.

While it is true that sometimes the use of certain terms can lead to
confusion, we nevertheless frequently use terminology that has multiple
meanings. For example, ask the airline pilot who is strapping into his
aerobatic mount on his day off from his flying job to explain and perform
a Dutch Roll, and he will know exactly what is being asked of him.
However, ask him to define dutch roll while he's at 35,000 feet in the
left seat of his airliner, and he'll likely delve into the aerodynamic
issues involved with dutch roll instability.

Yes, context is important; but to imply that a particlar phrase or word
can and must have one and only one meaning might be a fruitless exercise
indeed! Consider the following:


Rich,

Yeah, I was probably a bit over-the-top with my post. And my perspective
is perhaps clouded by my military and flight test background.

I guess the important point to reel in is that we need to be aware of
when a term could have more than one meaning, and provide enough context
to make the intended meaning clear. I first heard the term Dutch Roll
used to describe a coordination manoeuvre a couple of months ago. Before
that, if I went flying with you and you asked me to do a Dutch Roll, you
would have been baffled to watch me do a rudder doublet and count the yaw
overshoots.

Poor lateral-directional dynamic stabilty (a.k.a. dutch roll) is not
just an issue with swept-wing yets. I've heard many a V-tail Bonanza
driver complain about the tail wag, which is just a variant of dutch roll.

I'd tell you to keep the blue side up, but you probably don't want to do
that

Fly safe,
--
Kevin Horton
Ottawa, Canada
e-mail: khorton02(_at_)rogers(_dot_)com
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/

  #15  
Old October 17th 03, 02:38 AM
Andrew Gideon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Rich Stowell wrote:


Anyone want to add to this list?


The preflight checklist for the newer Cessna 172s requires that the fuel
shutoff be on. If the shutoff were on, wouldn't the fuel [flow] be shut
off?

- Andrew

P.S. See you in a couple of days.

  #16  
Old October 18th 03, 09:45 PM
Andrew Gideon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

David B. Cole wrote:

Yep, I've already checked them out. Remember I sent you their link a
few months ago when I first started to look for local aerobatic
operations?


So when can we go?

I consider myself a reasonable eloquent writer. But I find I've no way to
completely express what I felt after taking this course.

I could start with the easy stuff. I was nauseated. I'd thought I was
beyond that, as it's not occured since early in my training. But I never
did anything like this. Before I do it again, I'll be sure to have a care
and take precautions (eat some beforehand, no coffee, etc.). I broke all
those rules I'd developed for myself because I thought it didn't matter
anymore.

Ah well. That brings me to "frustrated" and "annoyed with myself". After
four spins (and the "basic flying" practiced earlier, like dutch rolls), I
decided to not risk the nice interior by continuing with a roll or a loop.

Awe is worth mentioning. My entire perspective of flying has shifted. I've
read about adverse yaw, for example, but it is so *obvious* in the Super
Decathalon! I could see that my footwork needs work; I've permitted myself
to become lazy on the rudder - assuming I was ever any better. But I
should shift the subject lest I return to "annoyed with myself".

So let's look instead at eagerness: I need to do this again. This is a
dimension to flying that I never before felt. Even things I thought I knew
are changed. I've already mentioned rudders. But I've always responded to
stalls with large movements that are apparently unnecessary and overkill.
It never occurred to me that I could take a subtle approach.

As Dave wrote at the start of this thread, I plan to do more. I've already
fired off an email to friends in the LA area asking "so, where is this
place relative to you" with regard to the airport where Rich is based.

Of course, I know that there's aero taught around here. Dave already has
something lined up, I think grin. When are we going?

Respect of the airplane also deserves mention. In this one brief flight, I
acquired a new feel for how an aircraft responds to its environment (which
includes the pilot and his/her instructions to the airplane). Part of this
was flying an aircraft far more responsive than I'd ever touched, but part
was the "view" that Rich has and explains. For example, it was easy to see
the relationship between a chandelle and a half-loop followed by a
half-roll (an immelman).

One interesting thing I noticed is that a number of the people taking the
course were students still working on their PPLs. I envy them that. This
is a terrific course, and it teaches a lot about flying. That it also
teaches hands-on responses to situations like spins is just the start.

- Andrew

  #17  
Old October 19th 03, 02:21 AM
David B. Cole
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Andrew,

Glad you enjoyed yourself, but sorry your nausea prevented you from
doing the extras. However, at the end of the day you did what was
most important. It's wierd, but my stomach was a little uneasy before
we took off, probably because of the anticipation. Even during the
Dutch Rolls I felt a little off, but felt fine for the duration. I
have a tendency to overanalyze things and worry too much about them,
and when I actually get around to doing whatever it is, it's never as
bad as I expected. What I found funny is that even while doing the
stalls, I was still a little concerned about getting into a spin, even
though that's the reason why I was there. I guess it came down to
mental readiness. I wanted to know exactly when the spin was going to
happen, and didn't want to get there from a botched stall, even though
I knew I would be doing spins only minutes later. Strange really. Of
course now I can probably do stalls and not even consider a wing drop.

I'm certainly considering heading out to VanSant if I can't make it
out to CA or get on Rich's schedule. Hell, I may even do both. I too
have already started looking at info for the area near Rich's airport.
I had an instrument lesson today and while I know that I'm more
confident in my flying because of the training, for some reason I
couldn't get anything right today and I left the airport in a very bad
mood. Perhaps I felt that my newfound confidence would translate to
my IR flying and I would come out of today's lesson ready for the
checkride. But I did notice that I was a lot less reluctant to muscle
the plane when necessary, especially with the turbulence we
experienced today. With regard to the rudder, I admit that my rudder
skills are a weakness as well. That's why I'm considering combining
the acro time with a tailwheel checkout after I'm done witht the IR.
Again, I don't think I could have spent the money any better than
flying with Rich.

Dave

Andrew Gideon wrote in message gonline.com...
David B. Cole wrote:

Yep, I've already checked them out. Remember I sent you their link a
few months ago when I first started to look for local aerobatic
operations?


So when can we go?

I consider myself a reasonable eloquent writer. But I find I've no way to
completely express what I felt after taking this course.

I could start with the easy stuff. I was nauseated. I'd thought I was
beyond that, as it's not occured since early in my training. But I never
did anything like this. Before I do it again, I'll be sure to have a care
and take precautions (eat some beforehand, no coffee, etc.). I broke all
those rules I'd developed for myself because I thought it didn't matter
anymore.

Ah well. That brings me to "frustrated" and "annoyed with myself". After
four spins (and the "basic flying" practiced earlier, like dutch rolls), I
decided to not risk the nice interior by continuing with a roll or a loop.

Awe is worth mentioning. My entire perspective of flying has shifted. I've
read about adverse yaw, for example, but it is so *obvious* in the Super
Decathalon! I could see that my footwork needs work; I've permitted myself
to become lazy on the rudder - assuming I was ever any better. But I
should shift the subject lest I return to "annoyed with myself".

So let's look instead at eagerness: I need to do this again. This is a
dimension to flying that I never before felt. Even things I thought I knew
are changed. I've already mentioned rudders. But I've always responded to
stalls with large movements that are apparently unnecessary and overkill.
It never occurred to me that I could take a subtle approach.

As Dave wrote at the start of this thread, I plan to do more. I've already
fired off an email to friends in the LA area asking "so, where is this
place relative to you" with regard to the airport where Rich is based.

Of course, I know that there's aero taught around here. Dave already has
something lined up, I think grin. When are we going?

Respect of the airplane also deserves mention. In this one brief flight, I
acquired a new feel for how an aircraft responds to its environment (which
includes the pilot and his/her instructions to the airplane). Part of this
was flying an aircraft far more responsive than I'd ever touched, but part
was the "view" that Rich has and explains. For example, it was easy to see
the relationship between a chandelle and a half-loop followed by a
half-roll (an immelman).

One interesting thing I noticed is that a number of the people taking the
course were students still working on their PPLs. I envy them that. This
is a terrific course, and it teaches a lot about flying. That it also
teaches hands-on responses to situations like spins is just the start.

- Andrew

  #18  
Old October 26th 03, 08:37 AM
Hilton
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Rich Stowell wrote:

We'd have to find another name for "flaps" because, frankly, they
don't;

The "elevator" does not elevate;

"Adding more throttle" or "increasing throttle" doesn't throttle
anything;

"Snap Rolls" have nothing to do with the roll control.

Anyone want to add to this list?


"World Series"?

BTW: I too am a 'graduate' of a Rich Stowell weekend of spins, or more
correctly EMT. I also own his EMT book (www.amazon.com) and videos (books
and videos available from http://www.richstowell.com/shop.htm). It was an
excellent learning experience. My opinion is that (some amount of) spin
training should be part of the pilot certificate training - but that's for
another thread. Rich's does great FAA Wings Seminars too. Did I mention
Rich is a great guy? Check him out at http://www.richstowell.com

Hilton


 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
AOPA Stall/Spin Study -- Stowell's Review (8,000 words) Rich Stowell Aerobatics 28 January 2nd 09 02:26 PM
Better URL for the "Unrecoverable Spins" Article Jay Aerobatics 0 August 29th 03 06:53 AM
An Article on Unrecoverable Spins Dave Swartz Aerobatics 0 August 16th 03 06:49 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2018 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.