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#61
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Least favorite ATC instructions... ... ...
A Lieberman wrote:
: On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 22:55:37 GMT, Matt Whiting wrote: : I've not heard that before either, but I'd never heard "check gear down" : before I flew into a military field either. And this was in a 182 which : made it even more comical. : I got this on my Beech Sundowner at GLH which is a commercial airport. : Tower got a chuckle when I replied "fixed and welded." : Maybe he thought I was a Sierra, who knows :-) I was a passenger in my friend's Swift - tailwheel retract. We were landing at Bridgport, perhaps - I can't remember. On short final tower called out "Swift go around! Swift go around go around!". We did a go-around. On downwind we asked "why did you have us go around?" Tower said "your nosegear was not down!" We were laughing pretty hard, and eventually my friend managed to say "Tower, the little wheel of this airplane is on the *back*". -- Aaron C. |
#62
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Least favorite ATC instructions... ... ...
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net... "Douglas Paterson" wrote in message ... [snip] I queried tower on the phone after landing, they explained (and cited an appropriate reg) that it essentially means "hey, we told you the weather's below mins; you fly your airplane, we don't mind if you land on our runway." That clearance may or may not exist in the civilian world, I don't know. USAF flies under its own rules--they mirror both FAA and ICAO regs, but there are plenty of subtle differences (as there are between FAA and ICAO). [snip] So someone within the USAF thought USAF tower controllers should inform flight crews that landing was at their own risk when the weather was below approach minimums? What does that mean, exactly? Does someone else assume the risk when weather is above approach minimums? That phraseology doesn't exist in the civilian world, but it's not because the USAF "flies under its own rules." All controllers in the US are required to provide services in accordance with FAA Order 7110.65, it doesn't matter if they wear a uniform. HOW it got into the regs, I can't say; I read it for myself, though, it's there (or at least it was at the time). It "means" what I somewhat flippantly said in my earlier response--it emphasizes the fact that the controller has advised the pilot of the below-mins wx conditions. The controller tells the pilot that he may land on the runway (as opposed to being *denied clearance to land* and diverting or holding, etc.), but that because of the conditions he's doing so "at his own risk." I think it's less about assuming risk, exactly, and more about communicating that point (my opinion). Of course, the pilot will always be responsible for any mishap; but, let's say the controller clears an aircraft to land knowing that the weather is below minimums--in any mishap, that controller is going to be hung to dry as well (at least in the USAF world). I spoke imprecisely when I said the USAF flies under its own rules--yes, it flies in compliance with FAA (and ICAO and host-nation, where applicable) rules. There are some pretty broad exceptions granted to the military *by the FARs*, though, and that's the point I was trying to make.... Air Force Instruction 11-202 Volume 3 [http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/pubfi...i11-202v3.pdf] is the "General Flight Rules" for USAF pilots--chapter 1 of that pub does a pretty decent job of explaining that inter-relation if you want the details. Similar relationships exist as well, for example, for the control of aircraft (though I'm not familiar enough with that side of things to give you a citation). -- Doug "Where am I to go/Now that I've gone too far?" -- Golden Earring, "Twilight Zone" (my email is spam-proofed; read the address and make the appropriate change to contact me) |
#63
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Least favorite ATC instructions... ... ...
"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
... Douglas Paterson wrote: I've not heard that before either, but I'd never heard "check gear down" before I flew into a military field either. And this was in a 182 which made it even more comical. This one I can answer a bit more directly, since it came about during my tenure in the Air Force. USAF got tired of "too many" gear-up landing (how many was that? dunno; 1 is "too many" in my book), so they implemented a policy that eventually worked its way into the rule books. I'll cite the pilot side of things; I'm reasonably certain that the (USAF) tower controllers' books have more or less the same guidance for their side of the radio. I have no idea what, if any, reduction in gear-up landings is attributed to this rule. From AFI 11-202 v3 [http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/pubfi...i11-202v3.pdf], para 5.9.6: 5.9.6. Landing Gear Reporting Procedures. Pilots operating retractable gear aircraft must report "gear down" to the ATC agency or runway supervisory unit after extending the landing gear. This report shall be made during any approach to an airport prior to crossing the runway threshold. -- Doug "Where am I to go/Now that I've gone too far?" -- Golden Earring, "Twilight Zone" (my email is spam-proofed; read the address and make the appropriate change to contact me) |
#64
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Least favorite ATC instructions... ... ...
Douglas Paterson wrote:
HOW it got into the regs, I can't say; I read it for myself, though, it's there (or at least it was at the time). It "means" what I somewhat flippantly said in my earlier response--it emphasizes the fact that the controller has advised the pilot of the below-mins wx conditions. The controller tells the pilot that he may land on the runway (as opposed to being *denied clearance to land* and diverting or holding, etc.), but that because of the conditions he's doing so "at his own risk." I think it's less about assuming risk, exactly, and more about communicating that point (my opinion). Of course, the pilot will always be responsible for any mishap; but, let's say the controller clears an aircraft to land knowing that the weather is below minimums--in any mishap, that controller is going to be hung to dry as well (at least in the USAF world). Every landing is at the pilot's risk. The controller has much less at stake. :-) Matt |
#65
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Least favorite ATC instructions... ... ...
Douglas Paterson wrote:
"Matt Whiting" wrote in message ... Douglas Paterson wrote: I've not heard that before either, but I'd never heard "check gear down" before I flew into a military field either. And this was in a 182 which made it even more comical. This one I can answer a bit more directly, since it came about during my tenure in the Air Force. USAF got tired of "too many" gear-up landing (how many was that? dunno; 1 is "too many" in my book), so they implemented a policy that eventually worked its way into the rule books. I'll cite the pilot side of things; I'm reasonably certain that the (USAF) tower controllers' books have more or less the same guidance for their side of the radio. I have no idea what, if any, reduction in gear-up landings is attributed to this rule. From AFI 11-202 v3 [http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/pubfi...i11-202v3.pdf], para 5.9.6: 5.9.6. Landing Gear Reporting Procedures. Pilots operating retractable gear aircraft must report "gear down" to the ATC agency or runway supervisory unit after extending the landing gear. This report shall be made during any approach to an airport prior to crossing the runway threshold. So if I had called the controller on downwind and reported "gear down and welded", I wouldn't have gotten that reminder when I was cleared to land? :-) Matt |
#66
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Least favorite ATC instructions... ... ...
"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
... So if I had called the controller on downwind and reported "gear down and welded", I wouldn't have gotten that reminder when I was cleared to land? :-) In theory? No. In practice? Almost certainly. It pretty much becomes a part of the controllers' automatic phraseology: "call sign, cleared to land rwy XX, check gear down." That happens to me more often than not even after reporting the gear down; indeed, I made it a habit to call at the FAF (which, by another USAF rule, is the latest point by which the gear must be down), "call sign, final approach fix, gear down"--which was typically followed immediately by tower with, "roger, call sign, cleared to land rwy XX, check gear down".... *sigh*.... -- Doug "Where am I to go/Now that I've gone too far?" -- Golden Earring, "Twilight Zone" (my email is spam-proofed; read the address and make the appropriate change to contact me) |
#67
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Least favorite ATC instructions... ... ...
Matt Whiting wrote:
I've not heard that before either, but I'd never heard "check gear down" before I flew into a military field either. And this was in a 182 which made it even more comical. I've heard "...check gear down, no landing light observed" on short final at RDU, a non-military airport. My landing light was inop and anyway is not related to the gear position. Nevertheless I thanked the controller for his concern. Dave |
#68
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Least favorite ATC instructions... ... ...
"Matt Whiting" wrote in message ... I've not heard that before either, but I'd never heard "check gear down" before I flew into a military field either. And this was in a 182 which made it even more comical. Controllers at military fields are required to issue a wheels down check, there's no exemption for fixed-gear aircraft. I belonged to a USAF Aero Club almost thirty years ago. A tower controller at one of our safety meetings attempted to explain why this was necessary even for our club aircraft, which were all fixed-gear. I don't recall his explanation, but I do remember thinking at the time it was completely absurd. Links to the requirements below: http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp2/atc0201.html#2-1-12 http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp2/atc0201.html#2-1-24 |
#69
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Least favorite ATC instructions... ... ...
"Matt Whiting" wrote in message ... Does 7110.65 prohibit saying "check gear down?" Nope. It actually requires some controllers to say it, although the book phraseology is "check wheels down". |
#70
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Least favorite ATC instructions... ... ...
"Douglas Paterson" wrote in message ... HOW it got into the regs, I can't say; I read it for myself, though, it's there (or at least it was at the time). It "means" what I somewhat flippantly said in my earlier response--it emphasizes the fact that the controller has advised the pilot of the below-mins wx conditions. The controller tells the pilot that he may land on the runway (as opposed to being *denied clearance to land* and diverting or holding, etc.), but that because of the conditions he's doing so "at his own risk." I think it's less about assuming risk, exactly, and more about communicating that point (my opinion). Of course, the pilot will always be responsible for any mishap; but, let's say the controller clears an aircraft to land knowing that the weather is below minimums--in any mishap, that controller is going to be hung to dry as well (at least in the USAF world). How does the controller know when the weather is below minimums for any particular operation? If the controller is going to be hung to dry in the event of a mishap if he doesn't state "at your own risk", then to cover his ass he'd have to state it whenever the weather drops below the highest user minima, which may still be above what's required for the arriving aircraft. Seems to me it'd be better to just state the latest weather information. I'd expect the pilot is going to ask for it anyway when told "at your own risk." |
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