Are they phasing out the S-3 too?

Jim Carriere wrote:
snip


Mk 54's are depth charges...



Hmmm, my assumption was wrong. I figured they must be some big

You were both right, there is a Mk 54 lightweight torpedo coming...
someday. More or less the brains of the Mk 50 and the body of the Mk 46.

I did not know (or forgot) there was such a thing as a Mk 54 depth
charge. I've heard of the B57, you really only have to be close with
that one, like horseshoes and hand grenades, but no need for a
followup

Yes, I see that, called a 'hybrid' torpedo. Guess the Mk54 DC is
so old that it's not spoken of now...or at least predates google
so far that it doesn't list it, might very well do too, we used
them on Lancasters in the mid fifties, pretty damned impressive
explosion they produced too. I don't really know much about them
(it was 50 years ago) except that they weighed 450 pounds and
that they helped the Argus CG a lot because we carried them in
the forward bomb bay.
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)

Jim Carriere wrote:

Gord Beaman wrote:

Jim Carriere wrote:


I've said it before, I believe a .50 caliber machine gun on a helo is
a better ASW weapon than any air dropped torpedo. Most of the time
you find a sub it will be on or near the surface taking a look. The
gun will make his life difficult because you will definitely hit him
with enough of the bullets. A perfect torpedo shot is pretty rare,
and even then it still might miss.


Would a fifty be of much concern to a sub?...I know that we had a
pair of .303's on Lancasters and they told us that it's value was
in keeping the sub's crew from manning their deck gun...do subs
even have a deck gun now? I doubt it.

I think it would make the periscope AFU, and before you think that's
too hard a target, aircrewmen occasionally hit smoke floats in
practice gunshoots. Not really sure about penetrating the pressure
hull, but API ammunition is pretty impressive stuff.

My point is a partial mission kill is possible (of course sinking is
impossible).

I agree, and as to hitting smoke floats (SDN's we called them)
I've done that myself, the F/E on Lancasters manned the front
turret (twin Browning .303) and I've put several out..fun....
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)

Gord,

Your several recent references to the Argus reminded me of a visit by a
number of we NAS Whidbey junior officers to CFB Comox one winter weekend in
1972. The purpose, of course, was some trans-national goodwill and
celebration at the Comox Officers Mess with our hosts and several lovely
ladies. All had the proverbial good time.

(For those unfamiliar with the geography of the Pacific Northwest, CFB Comox
is located on the east (inland) side of Vancouver Island. It's about a 3 - 4
hour drive from Whidbey, depending upon how long you must wait for the
Vancouver - Nanaimo ferry.)

In the course of the evening, one of our folks managed to big-deal a hop in
one of Comox's Argus fleet the following flying day. He suffered a short
rug dance before COMFAIR WHIDBEY upon his return (not s'posed to do such
things unless all the bureaucrats sign off beforehand) but all was forgiven
quickly.

Our guy reported back that the Argus was quite a capable platform, disguised
in a rather homely airframe. Homeliness was not a problem to any of us who
flew the Ugly for our paychecks, though.

Have you any Argus stories to share with us?
--
Mike Kanze

"We all know the modern American campus, or think we do: concentration
camps of the mind where students are tortured by baby-boom professors whose
speech codes, leftist politics and unseemly obsession with race, sex and
gender have distorted the ideal of higher education."

- Philip Terzian


"Gord Beaman" wrote in message
...
Jim Carriere wrote:
snip


Mk 54's are depth charges...



Hmmm, my assumption was wrong. I figured they must be some big

You were both right, there is a Mk 54 lightweight torpedo coming...
someday. More or less the brains of the Mk 50 and the body of the Mk 46.

I did not know (or forgot) there was such a thing as a Mk 54 depth
charge. I've heard of the B57, you really only have to be close with
that one, like horseshoes and hand grenades, but no need for a
followup

Yes, I see that, called a 'hybrid' torpedo. Guess the Mk54 DC is
so old that it's not spoken of now...or at least predates google
so far that it doesn't list it, might very well do too, we used
them on Lancasters in the mid fifties, pretty damned impressive
explosion they produced too. I don't really know much about them
(it was 50 years ago) except that they weighed 450 pounds and
that they helped the Argus CG a lot because we carried them in
the forward bomb bay.
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)

"Mike Kanze" wrote:

Gord,

Your several recent references to the Argus reminded me of a visit by a
number of we NAS Whidbey junior officers to CFB Comox one winter weekend in
1972. The purpose, of course, was some trans-national goodwill and
celebration at the Comox Officers Mess with our hosts and several lovely
ladies. All had the proverbial good time.

(For those unfamiliar with the geography of the Pacific Northwest, CFB Comox
is located on the east (inland) side of Vancouver Island. It's about a 3 - 4
hour drive from Whidbey, depending upon how long you must wait for the
Vancouver - Nanaimo ferry.)

In the course of the evening, one of our folks managed to big-deal a hop in
one of Comox's Argus fleet the following flying day. He suffered a short
rug dance before COMFAIR WHIDBEY upon his return (not s'posed to do such
things unless all the bureaucrats sign off beforehand) but all was forgiven
quickly.

Our guy reported back that the Argus was quite a capable platform, disguised
in a rather homely airframe. Homeliness was not a problem to any of us who
flew the Ugly for our paychecks, though.

Have you any Argus stories to share with us?

Yes, we used to do the same 'mini exchange tour' here also. We'd
usually exchange visits with NAS Brunswick in Maine, but we
usually took their crew flying (and they took us when it was
their turn) I know that they were equipped with the P-3. Then, of
course, we'd need to uphold our honour as big time drinkers as
they did their damnedest to out drink us...god, those were
hellish times.

We were stationed at Summerside on Prince Edward Island, one
hellish spot for weather in the winter. I've spent many stressful
minutes on the button with full fuel, full crew, full armament at
0400L standing up through the cockpit upper hatch to my waist
with an Aldis lamp trying to see if the driving snow was sticking
to the wings and hoping to make a good assessment so as to avoid
giving poor advice to the VPCC and ending up in a flaming ball
somewhere in the over-run. I think we paid for all the fun times
with those minutes.

I believe that I'm near the end of a near thirty year search
here...we had the second of our Argus go in here in 1977 (three
of the 16 man crew were killed) and the Control Tower taped the
happening. I've just now got a handle on a copy and it should be
here Thursday or Friday. (yippee)
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)

Jim Carriere wrote:

Gord Beaman wrote:

Jim Carriere wrote:


I've said it before, I believe a .50 caliber machine gun on a helo is
a better ASW weapon than any air dropped torpedo. Most of the time
you find a sub it will be on or near the surface taking a look. The
gun will make his life difficult because you will definitely hit him
with enough of the bullets. A perfect torpedo shot is pretty rare,
and even then it still might miss.


Would a fifty be of much concern to a sub?...I know that we had a
pair of .303's on Lancasters and they told us that it's value was
in keeping the sub's crew from manning their deck gun...do subs
even have a deck gun now? I doubt it.

I think it would make the periscope AFU, and before you think that's
too hard a target, aircrewmen occasionally hit smoke floats in
practice gunshoots. Not really sure about penetrating the pressure
hull, but API ammunition is pretty impressive stuff.

Considering that US 3" cannon rounds on DEs had a reputation for bouncing
off U-boat pressure hulls in WW2, I think we can safely assume that a
..50cal AP or API isn't going to hurt a more modern one. OTOH, rockets with
25 lb. solid steel heads would punch U-boat pressure hulls easily. The .50
cal along with the 20mm and even 40mm was useful for keeping the U-boat
crew from using their own guns, but nothing more.

Guy

Gord,

Thanks for the share. Sounds like the winter wx on P.E.I. is much nastier
than that afflicting the Puget Sound / Georgia Straits corner of the world.
Then, too, both Comox and Whidbey are in the lee of mountains that block
much of the really bad stuff, leaving both fields usually with nothing worse
than a duty 2K foot clag layer.

Unfortunately, our generation never got a regular exchange going with the
Comox folks. I suppose this was due to a lack of common community interest
(Comox - VP, Whidbey - VA & VAQ). Now that Whidbey is much more a VP base,
I wonder if this has changed.

Is Comox still active, and if so, in what capacity?

One thing's for sure - no more Argus.

--
Mike Kanze

"We all know the modern American campus, or think we do: concentration
camps of the mind where students are tortured by baby-boom professors whose
speech codes, leftist politics and unseemly obsession with race, sex and
gender have distorted the ideal of higher education."

- Philip Terzian


"Gord Beaman" wrote in message
...
"Mike Kanze" wrote:

[snippage]

Yes, we used to do the same 'mini exchange tour' here also. We'd
usually exchange visits with NAS Brunswick in Maine, but we
usually took their crew flying (and they took us when it was
their turn) I know that they were equipped with the P-3. Then, of
course, we'd need to uphold our honour as big time drinkers as
they did their damnedest to out drink us...god, those were
hellish times.

We were stationed at Summerside on Prince Edward Island, one
hellish spot for weather in the winter. I've spent many stressful
minutes on the button with full fuel, full crew, full armament at
0400L standing up through the cockpit upper hatch to my waist
with an Aldis lamp trying to see if the driving snow was sticking
to the wings and hoping to make a good assessment so as to avoid
giving poor advice to the VPCC and ending up in a flaming ball
somewhere in the over-run. I think we paid for all the fun times
with those minutes.

I believe that I'm near the end of a near thirty year search
here...we had the second of our Argus go in here in 1977 (three
of the 16 man crew were killed) and the Control Tower taped the
happening. I've just now got a handle on a copy and it should be
here Thursday or Friday. (yippee)
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)

Mike Kanze wrote:
Gord,

Your several recent references to the Argus reminded me of a visit by a
number of we NAS Whidbey junior officers to CFB Comox one winter weekend in
1972. The purpose, of course, was some trans-national goodwill and
celebration at the Comox Officers Mess with our hosts and several lovely
ladies. All had the proverbial good time.

(For those unfamiliar with the geography of the Pacific Northwest, CFB Comox
is located on the east (inland) side of Vancouver Island. It's about a 3 - 4
hour drive from Whidbey, depending upon how long you must wait for the
Vancouver - Nanaimo ferry.)

In the course of the evening, one of our folks managed to big-deal a hop in
one of Comox's Argus fleet the following flying day. He suffered a short
rug dance before COMFAIR WHIDBEY upon his return (not s'posed to do such
things unless all the bureaucrats sign off beforehand) but all was forgiven
quickly.

Our guy reported back that the Argus was quite a capable platform, disguised
in a rather homely airframe. Homeliness was not a problem to any of us who
flew the Ugly for our paychecks, though.

Have you any Argus stories to share with us?


As you probably know the Argus was based on the Bristol Britannia
airframe (as the P3 is based on the Electra and the Nimrod on the
Comet). In 1959 my crew from 405 Sqn in Greenwood N.S. was one of 3
crews from the east coast attending a Joint Anti-Submarine School course
in Ireland.

As is usual with these things the course included a fairly realistic
exercise involving aircraft, surface vessels and submarines.

My most vivid memory of the course (other than the heavily armed local
constabulary in Londonderry) was the presentation/explanation at the
exercise debriefing by the skipper of an RN submarine - he had been
performing a periscope sweep when he spotted a 'Bristol Britannia',
which he assumed was an aircraft of British Airways (in those days
BOAC), about to ditch in the ocean. He ordered his vessel to surface.

According to his presentation; he was more than a little upset when he
observed the "Britannia" opening its weapons-bay doors and did not seem
to feel it was 'cricket' to deem his vessel destroyed while he was in
the process of preparing to rescue passengers from a civilian aircraft.

Dave

Could I post your story over on Rec.Aviation. Military - it's too good not
share!

"Mike Kanze" wrote:

Gord,

Thanks for the share. Sounds like the winter wx on P.E.I. is much nastier
than that afflicting the Puget Sound / Georgia Straits corner of the world.
Then, too, both Comox and Whidbey are in the lee of mountains that block
much of the really bad stuff, leaving both fields usually with nothing worse
than a duty 2K foot clag layer.

Well, it can get disagreeable at times for sure...the systems
spawn off the East coast of Fla then track up the East coast and
veer East out over the North Atlantic after giving us a little
love tap. Had a great winter last year, very little snow, can't
say the same for this one.

Unfortunately, our generation never got a regular exchange going with the
Comox folks. I suppose this was due to a lack of common community interest
(Comox - VP, Whidbey - VA & VAQ). Now that Whidbey is much more a VP base,
I wonder if this has changed.


Yes, hopefully, those exchanges can certainly be fun, and
educational too.

Is Comox still active, and if so, in what capacity?


Yes it is...407 Maritime Patrol sqn is still there, the same one
that you visited...been there since the mid fifties equipped with
Lancasters then, later with P2V-7 then Argus.

One thing's for sure - no more Argus.

Sadly true...it was by far the best aircraft ever made for the
Flight Engineer trade. Only aircraft that I know of where the
pilots never touch the throttles...engineer has full and
exclusive control of the engines and all the aircraft systems.

Makes for an ideal ASW platform. Pilots can keep their full
attention outside the a/c while the F/E looks after the
housekeeping duties
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)

On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 22:00:20 GMT, Gord Beaman
wrote:

Thanks for the share. Sounds like the winter wx on P.E.I. is much nastier
than that afflicting the Puget Sound / Georgia Straits corner of the world.
Then, too, both Comox and Whidbey are in the lee of mountains that block
much of the really bad stuff, leaving both fields usually with nothing worse
than a duty 2K foot clag layer.

Well, it can get disagreeable at times for sure...the systems
spawn off the East coast of Fla then track up the East coast and
veer East out over the North Atlantic after giving us a little
love tap. Had a great winter last year, very little snow, can't
say the same for this one.

We got "tapped" at NAS Quonset, too. :-)

We usually got rain mixed with heavy, wet snow that washed away fairly
quickly. But sometimes we got heavy, wet snow then deep cold. Not a
good combination. :-)

One thing's for sure - no more Argus.

Sadly true...it was by far the best aircraft ever made for the
Flight Engineer trade. Only aircraft that I know of where the
pilots never touch the throttles...engineer has full and
exclusive control of the engines and all the aircraft systems.

We had a couple of Argus visit at Quonset. I watched one start up and
thought, "My God, he's on fire!" I have NEVER seen any aircraft
(including the old C-124 Globemaster) put out quite so much smoke on
start! I hope you had an oil quantity transmitter!!!!! ;-)

Makes for an ideal ASW platform. Pilots can keep their full
attention outside the a/c while the F/E looks after the
housekeeping duties

Was the aircraft commander also the mission commander? Did you guys
have NFO-type ASW specialists?

Bill Kambic