#1 Piston Fighter was British

Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: Cub Driver
Date: 6/30/03 2:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


Look at what happened before it showed up. There was more going on
than just the Mustang.

What happened before the (extended-range) Mustang showed up? Well, the
German air force was shooting down so many B-17s and B-24s that it
looked possible that the 8th Air Force would have to give up
deep-penetration daylight raids into Germany, to the huge benefit of
Albert Speer and the German war effort.

all the best -- Dan Ford (email: info AT danford.net)

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub


You tell 'em Danny boy. (sigh)


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: Cub Driver
Date: 6/30/03 2:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


Marauders at low-medium altitude
destroyed the beach defenses on their alloted targets.

One beach. Utah. There were other factors involved, but yes, the
American army suffered exactly 12 men killed in the initial landing at
Utah, and that was in part thanks to the Marauders operating at very
low level. Some said 500 feet, which is considerably below the pattern
altitude at the local airport.



What bomb Group was that?

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
snip
The Russians and the Germans fought hard an long and took great losses.
When we
came in we marched from D-Day to the Elbe in a mere 11 months. Get the
point?

cough cough ahem, the fact that there were a few other allied countries
involved escape your notice?

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
I meant to say the war in Western Euroe only started on D-day. Sorry I
left
that out.
But vast machines are made up of small cogs. And better to have served,
then
never to have served at all. Even as a small cog which I certainly was.

While not decrying your military service, you come across as a bigoted
uniformed egotistical fool.
I hope I am wrong, but your stupid statements seem to prove me to be right.
(and before you start on me, I served in combat as an Infantryman in SVN.
Another war that didn't start only when the Americans got there)

"Sunny" wrote in message
...

cough cough ahem, the fact that there were a few other allied countries
involved escape your notice?


Much about the war escaped his notice.

Cub Driver wrote in message . ..
Marauders at low-medium altitude
destroyed the beach defenses on their alloted targets.

One beach. Utah. There were other factors involved, but yes, the
American army suffered exactly 12 men killed in the initial landing at
Utah, and that was in part thanks to the Marauders operating at very
low level. Some said 500 feet, which is considerably below the pattern
altitude at the local airport.

all the best -- Dan Ford (email: info AT danford.net)


The Germans at Utah had exactly one standing 88mm left and even that
jamned due to shrapnel damage so they had no choice but to surrender.

The Omaha defenses survived the high altitude bombardment by B17s
which I think was effected by cloud and winds. Another factor was the
12th Waffen SS division with experience on the Russian front having
been missed by allied intelligence and not being to far from the
scene.

(ArtKramr) wrote in message ...
Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: (Kevin Brooks)
Date: 6/30/03 12:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote in message
...
Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: (The Revolution Will Not Be Televised)
Date: 6/30/03 7:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time

ir enough. Now jus take the P-51 out of the mix as though it never existed
and see what you end up with.

Look at what happened before it showed up. There was more going on
than just the Mustang.

Gavin Bailey

-

LIke what? The war actually began on D-Day. Everythig before that was a
long
list of trivial attacks like Dieppe that mostly failed.

Arthur Kramer

I can't wait to hear the result of your trying to make such an
outlandish claim to a veteran who had been slogging his way along in
Italy, or who had fought with Eigth Army (BR) in North Africa, when
you try to dump that particular load of fecal matter on him. No to
mention the odd Russian who had already started slogging his way
towards Berlin before we managed to pull off the Normandy landings.
And how about those 8th AF types who were already seeing friends dying
in droves *before* D-Day? Any natural teeth you may still enjoy the
company of will likely be a brief memory should you feel a burning
desire to share such drivel with any of the above.

This reprehensible statement rivals your past mealymouthed mutterings
in regards to how those who served during WWII without seeing combat
in the air over Europe somhow don't meet up to your own high standards
of honorable conduct, how officers are much smarter than enlisted men,
groundcrews did not experience war, etc. Stick to talking about that
small, finite element of the war about which you may have a clue (B-26
air operations in Europe); everytime you meander from that topic you
further reveal how increasingly imbecilic you really are.

Brooks


And your combat experieces were?????

....not germane to the issue of your continued belittling of the
honorable service and sacrifices of others. You think this kind of
crap somehow makes you look bigger in others' eyes? Think again.

Brooks


Arthur Kramer

(ArtKramr) wrote in message ...
Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: Peter Twydell
Date: 6/30/03 1:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:



So don't give me that egotistical crap about "the war only started on D-
Day". You, and he, were only small cogs in a vast machine.


I meant to say the war in Western Euroe only started on D-day. Sorry I left
that out.
But vast machines are made up of small cogs. And better to have served, then
never to have served at all. Even as a small cog which I certainly was.

Of course, what Art really means, based upon past exchanges, is that
he has a whole hierarchy of "cogs", and he invariably places his cog
above most others. He has said his ground crews had no idea of what
war was, that the folks who transported his armaments and fuel to his
base similarly had no idea, and that folks who entered the service,
served honorably, did what they were ordered to do (often despite
their own personal wishes) but never entered into aerial combat over
Europe were hardly even deserving of the title of "veteran", etc. he
apparently has a lot of missing teeth on that gear he keeps referring
to.

Brooks


Arthur Kramer

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

Look at what happened before it showed up. There was more going on
than just the Mustang.

What happened before the (extended-range) Mustang showed up? Well, the
German air force was shooting down so many B-17s and B-24s that it
looked possible that the 8th Air Force would have to give up
deep-penetration daylight raids into Germany, to the huge benefit of
Albert Speer and the German war effort.


Problem with this analysis is that the attrition of the Luftwaffe had
already got to the back side of the curve prior to the P-51's introduction.
The P-38, for example, did a lot of damage, and was capable of deep escort.

--
--
Dennis Jensen
Author of "The Flying Pigs"
http://www.ebooks-online.com/ebooks/search.asp
NOW ONLINE

Peter Twydell wrote in message ...
In article , ArtKramr
writes
Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: (The Revolution Will Not Be Televised)
Date: 6/30/03 7:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time

ir enough. Now jus take the P-51 out of the mix as though it never existed
and see what you end up with.

Look at what happened before it showed up. There was more going on
than just the Mustang.

Gavin Bailey

-

LIke what? The war actually began on D-Day. Everythig before that was a long
list of trivial attacks like Dieppe that mostly failed.

Art, you can be a moronic old ******* sometimes.

My father was 35 years old when war broke out, and as he was a member of
the Territorial Army, was called up immediately. He was heavily involved
in the ack-ack organisation in Essex, a part of the world with which you
are familiar, right from the very start. The Battle of Britain was
fought right over his home.
He was posted to North Africa in 1942 as part of the Allied (that means
the British were there as well as the Americans) invasion force. He left
behind a pregnant wife, who gave birth to a premature baby at about the
time he was landing as part of Operation Torch. The baby died after 3
days, and my mother never really got over it. He also left behind a two-
year-old daughter. He spent the next 3 years as a REME officer
supporting the efforts and sacrifices of front-line troops, and only
came home some time after VE Day.

So don't give me that egotistical crap about "the war only started on D-
Day". You, and he, were only small cogs in a vast machine.

Dad never liked Americans, and sometimes I can see why.

Dear God, please do not judge us all on the basis of the mumblings of
folks like Art, the Tarvernaut, and those of similar ilk. We all have
our share of bad apples.

Brooks