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#51
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Practice IMC in real IMC
"Peter R." wrote in message ... Matt Barrow wrote: I take it you dumped that guy? Nope. He's a 10,000 hour, gray-haired ATP with a lot of experience to share and a very good teacher. I would imagine he only hands out tasks such as these if he has confidence in the instrument pilot taking the IPC. Or he's showing you what HE can do. The air carriers have been training these in simulators for years...for a reason. Recall the discussion here several months ago regarding teaching "spin recovery versus spin avoidance". The air carriers have been training these in simulators for years...for a reason. |
#52
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Practice IMC in real IMC
Matt Barrow wrote:
"kgruber" wrote in message ... " You probably wouldn't be save in IMC without your flight director so I think you are exercising good judgement. You are really full of crap (putting it mildly). You're one of those brick-brains that give GA a bad reputation, the worst of which is justified. You pompous idiot...smarter that ASF and the other organizations and more goddamn arrogant than the fools we deride. Okay, you overgrown punk, get the last word in like you usually do in your typical adolescent manner. Drinking AGAIN tonight matt? You really need to put a check mark in the "Do you have visions of self grandeur" box on your next medical. Let's see: I'm uncomfortable doing unusual attitude recovery in IMC. The accident record shows this to be probably the top killer of IR pilots. So tell me how that equates to "visions of self grandeur" instead of something more the opposite, such as "not pushing ones luck"? That fact that you are uncomfortable doesn't mean that it is dangerous or that others shouldn't do it. And I've seen no data that suggests that practicing in IMC with an instructor is a top killer of IR pilots. Personally, I think the reason that pilots lose it in IMC on "real" flights is because they don't practice flying maneuvers enough in real IMC. Matt |
#53
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Practice IMC in real IMC
Matt Barrow wrote:
"Peter R." wrote in message ... Matt Barrow wrote: I take it you dumped that guy? Nope. He's a 10,000 hour, gray-haired ATP with a lot of experience to share and a very good teacher. I would imagine he only hands out tasks such as these if he has confidence in the instrument pilot taking the IPC. Or he's showing you what HE can do. The air carriers have been training these in simulators for years...for a reason. True, and the reason is that it costs way too much to practice in a real airliner. Recall the discussion here several months ago regarding teaching "spin recovery versus spin avoidance". The air carriers have been training these in simulators for years...for a reason. Yes, see above. Also, many airliners aren't recoverable from a spin so practicing spins in them would be ill advised. Matt |
#54
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Practice IMC in real IMC
Let's see: I'm uncomfortable doing unusual attitude recovery in IMC. The
accident record shows this to be probably the top killer of IR pilots. I think this is a simpleminded use of statistics, and suggest (avec caveat) that an examination of -why- it is the top killer (if in fact it is; I don't know this) would be called for. I speculate: 1: the unusual attitude came as a surprise, 2: it came as a result of an instrument failure (such as vacuum) and subsequent lack of partial panel chops, 3: it came about single pilot 4: the pilot was not sharp at recovery (or even IMC skills) and/or 5: it came about with a low ceiling, allowing no room for VFR recovery. Practicing unusual attitude recovery, deliberately, in IMC, with a high ceiling, and with a CFII, would address all of these conditions except instrument failure. That last condition could be addressed by checking the gauges prior to each entry. Actually =doing= the maneuvers, even a this way, does entail some risk, but the benefit is increased IFR sharpness and skills, which translates into overall safer IFR flying. Jose -- Nothing takes longer than a shortcut. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
#55
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Practice IMC in real IMC
On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 22:36:59 GMT, Jose
wrote: Let's see: I'm uncomfortable doing unusual attitude recovery in IMC. The For practice I think it's an unnecessary added risk and really adds nothing that you can't do under the hood. accident record shows this to be probably the top killer of IR pilots. I'm not so sure about that, but I don't know. I think this is a simpleminded use of statistics, and suggest (avec caveat) that an examination of -why- it is the top killer (if in fact it is; I don't know this) would be called for. I speculate: 1: the unusual attitude came as a surprise, Many things can come as surprises, but the only way an unusual attitude should come as a surprise is either extreme turbulence, or lack of attention. On one of my early flights as a student in IMC, I ended up in an unusual attitude. ( I let the bank in a descending turn get too steep and away we went) The instructor never said a word. He just sat there and waited for me to recover which I did. Certainly he would have taken over had things (or I) appeared to be coming unglued, but it was little different than a VFR recovery. You do have to learn that both the DG and AI are quite likely to be unreliable during and for a little while after an unusual attitude recovery. 2: it came as a result of an instrument failure (such as vacuum) and Vacuum failures can catch even experienced pilots as the AI very slooooly rolls over and plays dead. Slow enough that the pilot has a tendency to follow it unless his/her instrument scan catches it right away. You'd think it'd be easy to catch, but if you are bouncing around with the resultant erratic instruments bounces as well, the failure may be pronounced before the differences in the scan become pronounced enough to spot. Still, although it may result in the necessity of an unusual attitude recovery, with altitude it should be relatively easy. subsequent lack of partial panel chops, That is important. 3: it came about single pilot It should not be much of a problem for a *proficient* pilot. Notice I didn't say current. 4: the pilot was not sharp at recovery (or even IMC skills) and/or Which was my case. 5: it came about with a low ceiling, allowing no room for VFR recovery. We had lots of altitude. Practicing unusual attitude recovery, deliberately, in IMC, with a high ceiling, and with a CFII, would address all of these conditions except instrument failure. That last condition could be addressed by checking the gauges prior to each entry. Actually... that is probably a no. It is quite easy to cause the gyros to tumble in an unusual attitude, or recovery. You don't have to roll much beyond 60 degrees for that to happen. I've been 90 degreed by the weather quite a few times and it usually takes the AI and DG a bit to recover. I always figure an unusual attitude recovery IMC or under the hood is going to be partial panel as those are the only instruments at that time I really trust even if my scan does tell me they all agree. Actually =doing= the maneuvers, even a this way, does entail some risk, but the benefit is increased IFR sharpness and skills, which translates into overall safer IFR flying. Most of this can be done under the hood with an instructor, or safety pilot who is intimately familiar with the airplane and its requirements and is probably a lot safer. I'd not want to be doing unusual attitude recovery in IMC unless I was very proficient and I tend to be pretty laid back and am very familiar with my plane and just how far it can go before complaining or trying to bite back.. I really don't see much of an advantage to actually doing stalls and unusual attitude recovery in IMC compared to under the hood. Besides if the worst does happen and your screw up under the hood there should be someone in the right seat who can help. Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member) (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair) www.rogerhalstead.com Jose |
#56
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Practice IMC in real IMC
Most of this can be done under the hood with an instructor, or safety
pilot who is intimately familiar with the airplane and its requirements and is probably a lot safer. It's different in the clag. Hoodwork is helpful, but actual can be an eye-opener. Jose -- Nothing takes longer than a shortcut. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
#57
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Practice IMC in real IMC
"Roger" wrote in message ... On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 22:36:59 GMT, Jose wrote: Let's see: I'm uncomfortable doing unusual attitude recovery in IMC. The For practice I think it's an unnecessary added risk and really adds nothing that you can't do under the hood. accident record shows this to be probably the top killer of IR pilots. I'm not so sure about that, but I don't know. In combining the latest Nall Report (which does more to report by aircraft type) and the data from the ASF's Beech Safety Report (which is more a comparison of Beech models but also of IR vs non-IR pilots), it _appears_ the biggest killer of IR pilots is flight into thunderstorms during IMC and loss of control while maneauvering in IMC (combined factors???...I'm not a statistician, nor a "****house lawyer" :~) ). I'd be intereted in seeing a report that sifts the data out more directly than trying to extrapolate multiple sources. snip -- Matt --------------------- Matthew W. Barrow Site-Fill Homes, LLC. Montrose, CO |
#58
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Practice IMC in real IMC
Matt Barrow wrote:
"Roger" wrote in message ... On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 22:36:59 GMT, Jose wrote: Let's see: I'm uncomfortable doing unusual attitude recovery in IMC. The For practice I think it's an unnecessary added risk and really adds nothing that you can't do under the hood. accident record shows this to be probably the top killer of IR pilots. I'm not so sure about that, but I don't know. In combining the latest Nall Report (which does more to report by aircraft type) and the data from the ASF's Beech Safety Report (which is more a comparison of Beech models but also of IR vs non-IR pilots), it _appears_ the biggest killer of IR pilots is flight into thunderstorms during IMC and loss of control while maneauvering in IMC (combined factors???...I'm not a statistician, nor a "****house lawyer" :~) ). Which has nothing to do with the point being discussed which was PRACTICE maneuvers with an instructor. I'd argue that if we did more practice in actual we'd have fewer accidents in actual. Although, flying into a thunderstorm is as much an error in judgement as it is a measure of flying ability. I'd be intereted in seeing a report that sifts the data out more directly than trying to extrapolate multiple sources. I agree. I've never seen such data, unfortunately. Matt |
#59
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Practice IMC in real IMC
"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote in
: Robert Chambers wrote: Cloud flying is different, a peek is work a thousand crosschecks, you are forced to be honest when you're in the soup, even your peripheral cues disappear. Pretty much everyone will tell you it's actually easier to fly in clouds than under the hood. I assume it's because you have the normal scope of vision within the cockpit compared to the very limited view under the hood. So, while you still can't see the horizon, you can see the radios, compass, instruments, etc in the same view. Then of course there's the added motivation. This is one video game you can't afford to lose. I don't know if I agree completely... It's much harder to keep your scan going when you want so badly to look out the window at the beautiful cloud formations! |
#60
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Practice IMC in real IMC
It's much harder to keep your scan going when you want so badly to look out
the window at the beautiful cloud formations! If you can see beautiful cloud formations, your eyeballs had better be focused on the HDPD(*) in front of you. Aluminum is everywhere! *High Definition Plexiglass Display Jose -- Nothing takes longer than a shortcut. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
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