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Best Path to Race



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 22nd 17, 05:37 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jeff Morgan
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Posts: 20
Default Best Path to Race

After a 12 year soaring hiatus to advance my airline career, I am back in. I rejoined my old club and got a flight review, and am happy to report the passion is still there.

However, I am at a crossroads, much like before. Our club is all metal ships. Between that and the club time limit per flight, cross country is out of the question. To progress I need to get my own ship sometime between now and next season.

The question is the best path. I know I want to fly XC. I have never had more fun in flying than my few XC flights (believe it or not, I find glider XC more fun than jets). Being very competitive, I *think* I want to race. But having never done it ... can't be sure until I actually do a race.

Being light on the glider experience (120 hours, 15 glass) I was thinking at least one year of cross country flying, probably two, before I have any business entering a contest.

So what glider to get? I find myself wanting Standard Class more than 15 meter just for simplicity and enjoyment. But flapped ships are not completely out. To some extent, I have to take what the used market has to offer over the next six months.

The Current Thinking is to go all-in and just buy a ship that is currently at the top of the class (which today means DIscus, LS-8, Ventus, or ASW27). That way I do all of my learning in the ship I would eventually (hopefully) race in 2019 or 2020. And if racing does not fulfill me, I still have a great ship.

But some doubts about the wisdom of that approach have crept in. Perhaps I should be looking at a ship less competitive but still solid for XC that would be traded later?

Something with 17 meter tips perhaps. The older Ventus gliders jumped to mind first, but they are long in the tooth and in the game of musical gelcoat chairs, the music would stop and I would be the guy left without a chair.

The 304CZ then came to mind. Being generally newer, gelcoat and trailer would likely be great, and still great when I sell. I could even do a few races with 15 meter tips "just to see". The downside, I would have to buy and get in tune with a new ship before serious racing.

Or maybe I am just over-analyzing this thing?
  #2  
Old November 22nd 17, 06:40 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tim Taylor
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Posts: 751
Default Best Path to Race

More details would be helpful. Where are you located? What do others fly on your field? What type of budget do you have?

Short answer, don't wait to race. You can start this coming year in a local regional in sports class. You will learn more in the week than a year flying at your club. As long as you can fly a silver distance and are comfortable doing an off-field landing you can start racing. When you give more details we can help more with the plane.
  #3  
Old November 22nd 17, 07:44 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy Blackburn[_3_]
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Posts: 608
Default Best Path to Race

Welcome back Jeff. Lots of us have made the trip back.

Looks like you are in Arizona if the SSA database is current. Awesome place to fly.

If you want to race, the glider you pick will have some impact on your racing options and possibly your satisfaction.

You can get pretty much any glass ship and fly Sports Class, which is a good place to start. It's handicap flying and not every contest offers sports, though it's pretty common. Club Class restrict you choices to gliders that are a couple of generations old. You only really gain the right to fly Club Class Nationals, so I wouldn't necessarily go there unless you are budget constrained.

If you want a ship that allows you to fly in non-handicapped contests and not feel at too much of a disadvantage then you are looking at one of the last two generations of gliders. ASW-27/ASG-29 or Ventus/Ventus2.

You can look at Standard Class as you suggested, but many Standard Class racing pilots have moved to 15/18 Meter as there are no current production Standard Class Gliders so ultimately Standard Class unhandicapped racing will become pretty rare. You will mostly find yourself flying in Sports/Club or FAI Handicapped. The problem here for you if you fly in the west is that there is no really good way to apply a fixed handicap to make a non-flapped glider equivalent to a flapped glider over all weather conditions. A Discus 2 plus 2% can compete with a Ventus 2 in typical eastern conditions, but you need 7-8% at typical cruise speeds in the west. A variable handicap system is just not going to happen any time soon.

Also, if you fly at high density altitudes you might want landing flaps to get into tight spaces on hot summer days up high.

Therefore, I'd recommend and ASW-27, Ventus or Ventus 2. It depends on your budget. In the long run 15/18 and 18/21 are the planforms that will have the most pilots, but 15 Meter will be around for a while because of the 15 in 15/18.

Andy Blackburn
9B
  #4  
Old November 22nd 17, 11:20 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
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Posts: 961
Default Best Path to Race

On Wednesday, November 22, 2017 at 7:37:43 AM UTC+3, Jeff Morgan wrote:
After a 12 year soaring hiatus to advance my airline career, I am back in.. I rejoined my old club and got a flight review, and am happy to report the passion is still there.

However, I am at a crossroads, much like before. Our club is all metal ships. Between that and the club time limit per flight, cross country is out of the question. To progress I need to get my own ship sometime between now and next season.

The question is the best path. I know I want to fly XC. I have never had more fun in flying than my few XC flights (believe it or not, I find glider XC more fun than jets). Being very competitive, I *think* I want to race. But having never done it ... can't be sure until I actually do a race.

Being light on the glider experience (120 hours, 15 glass) I was thinking at least one year of cross country flying, probably two, before I have any business entering a contest.

So what glider to get? I find myself wanting Standard Class more than 15 meter just for simplicity and enjoyment. But flapped ships are not completely out. To some extent, I have to take what the used market has to offer over the next six months.

The Current Thinking is to go all-in and just buy a ship that is currently at the top of the class (which today means DIscus, LS-8, Ventus, or ASW27). That way I do all of my learning in the ship I would eventually (hopefully) race in 2019 or 2020. And if racing does not fulfill me, I still have a great ship.

But some doubts about the wisdom of that approach have crept in. Perhaps I should be looking at a ship less competitive but still solid for XC that would be traded later?

Something with 17 meter tips perhaps. The older Ventus gliders jumped to mind first, but they are long in the tooth and in the game of musical gelcoat chairs, the music would stop and I would be the guy left without a chair..

The 304CZ then came to mind. Being generally newer, gelcoat and trailer would likely be great, and still great when I sell. I could even do a few races with 15 meter tips "just to see". The downside, I would have to buy and get in tune with a new ship before serious racing.

Or maybe I am just over-analyzing this thing?


"just buy a ship that is currently at the top of the class (which today means Discus, LS-8, Ventus, or ASW27)"

If your finances are such that you can easily plunk down cash for one of those without crimping the rest of your lifestyle then there's no reason not to. They not only perform better, they are easier to fly and have safer handling (and better crash properties) than older gliders.

I wish I was in that position!

Flaps are also a big safety benefit in outlandings. Std Class ships come in comparatively much hotter. If you don't need a copilot in your ear to remind you to put them down (or up) when appropriate then they're a good thing. They do constrain what contests you can enter though.

For cross country flying on your own, it really doesn't matter what you fly if it was designed in the 80s or even late 70s. A 2% or 3% performance difference is huge in racing, but isn't going to make the difference between making that 500 km xcountry or not -- you might take 5 or 10 minutes longer is all.

Don't be scared of contests. At the lower levels gliding contests are pretty much a way to do some organised cross country flying with the benefit of an expert picking the task, briefings, and lots of support to come and get you out of a field if necessary. It's not about winning and losing, and everyone helps beginners. It's EASIER than planning and executing your own xcountry flights if you're inexperienced.

Main thing is getting comfortable planning and executing precision approaches in your glider into places you've never landed before, with a low energy touchdown within 5m or so of where you planned to, and being able to get down and stopped within 100m of the start of the field (assuming a standard 1.2m (4 ft) fence).
  #5  
Old November 22nd 17, 03:07 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Michael Opitz
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Posts: 318
Default Best Path to Race



You can get pretty much any glass ship and fly Sports Class, which

is a
goo=
d place to start. It's handicap flying and not every contest offers
sports,=
though it's pretty common. Club Class restrict you choices to

gliders
that=
are a couple of generations old. You only really gain the right to

fly
Clu=
b Class Nationals, so I wouldn't necessarily go there unless you are
budget=
constrained.=20

You can look at Standard Class as you suggested, but many

Standard Class
ra=
cing pilots have moved to 15/18 Meter as there are no current

production
St=
andard Class Gliders so ultimately Standard Class unhandicapped

racing
will=
become pretty rare. You will mostly find yourself flying in

Sports/Club
or=
FAI Handicapped.


Modern STD Class is allowed in USA Club Class. Just look at the
last Club Class Nationals results. A Discus-2 or LS-8 can be flown
in STD, Sports, and Club Classes - all of them handicapped, so if
something newer comes along later, you will still be able to
compete.

If you choose to buy something which is new-mature production
in a flapped ship, just be prepared for the resale value to go down
in a couple of years when the next greatest thing comes out, and
you are now at a competitive disadvantage because there is no
handicapping in that class. In the USA, the resale value goes
down as soon as the glider is no longer top-competitive. In
Europe, the resale prices hold up better because there are clubs
out there which want those ships. I played that game for years.
I had 6 different brand new gliders in one 8 year period, all for the
sake of staying on top of the performance curve for racing. (non
handicapped STD Class at the time)

Modern STD Class gliders have come down in price along with
V-2's and ASW-27's. You can get a good D-2 for ~35% of what
a new ASG-29 will set you back. It all depends on how much
money you have to throw at it. If you aren't sure, I'd suggest
you try the lower cost entry point, and adjust from there (if
necessary) at a later date when you can define your parameters
a little better.

Good luck, and welcome back.

RO

  #6  
Old November 22nd 17, 03:16 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 2,124
Default Best Path to Race

On Tuesday, November 21, 2017 at 11:37:43 PM UTC-5, Jeff Morgan wrote:
After a 12 year soaring hiatus to advance my airline career, I am back in.. I rejoined my old club and got a flight review, and am happy to report the passion is still there.

However, I am at a crossroads, much like before. Our club is all metal ships. Between that and the club time limit per flight, cross country is out of the question. To progress I need to get my own ship sometime between now and next season.

The question is the best path. I know I want to fly XC. I have never had more fun in flying than my few XC flights (believe it or not, I find glider XC more fun than jets). Being very competitive, I *think* I want to race. But having never done it ... can't be sure until I actually do a race.

Being light on the glider experience (120 hours, 15 glass) I was thinking at least one year of cross country flying, probably two, before I have any business entering a contest.

So what glider to get? I find myself wanting Standard Class more than 15 meter just for simplicity and enjoyment. But flapped ships are not completely out. To some extent, I have to take what the used market has to offer over the next six months.

The Current Thinking is to go all-in and just buy a ship that is currently at the top of the class (which today means DIscus, LS-8, Ventus, or ASW27). That way I do all of my learning in the ship I would eventually (hopefully) race in 2019 or 2020. And if racing does not fulfill me, I still have a great ship.

But some doubts about the wisdom of that approach have crept in. Perhaps I should be looking at a ship less competitive but still solid for XC that would be traded later?

Something with 17 meter tips perhaps. The older Ventus gliders jumped to mind first, but they are long in the tooth and in the game of musical gelcoat chairs, the music would stop and I would be the guy left without a chair..

The 304CZ then came to mind. Being generally newer, gelcoat and trailer would likely be great, and still great when I sell. I could even do a few races with 15 meter tips "just to see". The downside, I would have to buy and get in tune with a new ship before serious racing.

Or maybe I am just over-analyzing this thing?


Contests are a lot of fun, so get sharp and jump in, remembering that you need to fly within your(expanding) limitations as your experience grows. The contest community likes new people and will happily give you all the help you can stand.
As to ships,I think there is a a sweet spot where you can have really good performance,not super old, and able to fly in many classes. I would include in this list the LS-4, DG300, ASW-24, and Discus. All can fly in Club Class, US limited handicap range Std Class, and Sports. There is almost always a race you can fly in with these ships. All have good air brakes and are of mid age. They all have retained value well and can be expected to do so in the future. Parts for all are readily available.
Find the best of the type, with a good trailer and get going.
A good mentor will speed you progress and help your comfort and safety a lot.
  #7  
Old November 22nd 17, 03:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Cochrane[_3_]
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Posts: 351
Default Best Path to Race

If you have the money there is no reason not to get a modern glider. They are easier to fly, safer, and also happen to perform better. If you don't think you have the money, look a little deeper in to your wallet. Two years from now you will suddenly discover that you do! Gliders are actually not that expensive. Yes, the capital cost is high, but they keep their value well, and they require little maintenance. You have money tied up in a glider, not money spent on a glider. Flaps on a modern glider like ASW27 are a non issue -- simply better in every way, and not a big complexity for a good new pilot (especially with airline background) to deal with. The sweet spot right now is buying a great 15 meter racer like a 27 or V2 from pilots who discover then absolutely need to spend $50k on 3 more meters of wing.

Go to contests sooner rather than later. My greatest regret is not thinking I was ready for too many years. Once you are reasonably competent at thermaling, have done 5 cross country flights of 100 miles or so, off to a sports class regionals. They are really xc training camps, not contests. You learn so much more so quickly at a regional contest than heading out alone. Forget the race, think of it as a camp. Every day, you will get a detailed weather briefing, an experienced pilot will set the best task for the day and the weather, experienced pilots will happily offer all sorts of advice on how to do the task, tows are provided, even wing runners are provided, there is a retrieve desk to help out should you need it, towplanes will come get you from nearby airports, and then experienced pilots will help debrief. Most of all, you will learn that it is possible and practical to go out cross country on days that you would not normally get out of bed, and to complete the task too. And then there will be beer. What more could one want?

John Cochrane BB
  #8  
Old November 22nd 17, 03:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
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Posts: 961
Default Best Path to Race

On Wednesday, November 22, 2017 at 5:22:02 PM UTC+3, John Cochrane wrote:
If you have the money there is no reason not to get a modern glider. They are easier to fly, safer, and also happen to perform better. If you don't think you have the money, look a little deeper in to your wallet. Two years from now you will suddenly discover that you do! Gliders are actually not that expensive. Yes, the capital cost is high, but they keep their value well, and they require little maintenance. You have money tied up in a glider, not money spent on a glider. Flaps on a modern glider like ASW27 are a non issue -- simply better in every way, and not a big complexity for a good new pilot (especially with airline background) to deal with. The sweet spot right now is buying a great 15 meter racer like a 27 or V2 from pilots who discover then absolutely need to spend $50k on 3 more meters of wing.

Go to contests sooner rather than later. My greatest regret is not thinking I was ready for too many years. Once you are reasonably competent at thermaling, have done 5 cross country flights of 100 miles or so, off to a sports class regionals. They are really xc training camps, not contests. You learn so much more so quickly at a regional contest than heading out alone. Forget the race, think of it as a camp. Every day, you will get a detailed weather briefing, an experienced pilot will set the best task for the day and the weather, experienced pilots will happily offer all sorts of advice on how to do the task, tows are provided, even wing runners are provided, there is a retrieve desk to help out should you need it, towplanes will come get you from nearby airports, and then experienced pilots will help debrief. Most of all, you will learn that it is possible and practical to go out cross country on days that you would not normally get out of bed, and to complete the task too. And then there will be beer. What more could one want?

John Cochrane BB


Grid girls/boys (as appropriate). With umbrellas.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/53/110...1567e2c1_o.jpg
  #9  
Old November 23rd 17, 01:56 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Retting
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Posts: 121
Default Best Path to Race

Flaps are also a big safety benefit in outlandings? Std Class ships come in comparatively much hotter?

Really? 44 contests flying a Discus and not a scratch. 5 retrieves with tail booms broken....all flap ships.
So, I say lousy pilots fly flap ships. Or, flap ship pilots make poor decisions.
Find the ship you want to race. It will take hours and hours to become tuned with her so you might as well love the ride.

R

  #10  
Old November 23rd 17, 03:26 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
BobW
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Posts: 504
Default Best Path to Race

Flaps are also a big safety benefit in outlandings? Std Class ships come
in comparatively much hotter?

Really? 44 contests flying a Discus and not a scratch. 5 retrieves with
tail booms broken....all flap ships. So, I say lousy pilots fly flap ships.
Or, flap ship pilots make poor decisions. Find the ship you want to race.
It will take hours and hours to become tuned with her so you might as well
love the ride.


Heh. We're definitely approaching northern hemisphere winter.

My own "outlandings gone bad" observational experience is roughly 50%...and
very few of the pilots involved approached their field selection choices in as
cowardly as fashion as Yours Truly. That said, "the best of my tales" involved
a PIK-20B (90-degree flaps) driver seriously breaking his bird in an OFL to a
smallish field...downwind. It was "your classic lowish-experienced-OFL sort of
high/fast/in-too-close pattern, even without the tailwind assist. I've little
doubt that almost anything beyond an on-airspeed-1-26 would've been seriously
broken trying to make a downwind approach to that particular field.

Flaps or not, there ain't no substitute for good judgment!

Bob W.

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