Pipistrel Kit Aircraft now FAA 51% Accepted

"Jack" wrote in message
t...
Juan Jimenez wrote:

In my experience, running into "good ones" all the time means that
whoever is doing the running has figured out there are things the FAA
doesn't need to know.

Juan, any boy with parents learns that by the time he's ten.

Good luck.

What can I say, I was taught to do things by the book, correctly, or not do
them at all.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"Bruce Greef" wrote in message
...
Eric Greenwell wrote:
Juan Jimenez wrote:

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:BI5ah.13303$_x3.11069@trndny02...

Juan Jimenez wrote:
ect certification of an individual aircraft.

Ron Wanttaja

C'mon Ron. You make it sound like the FAA guys are an officious bunch
of self righteous bureaucrats!

What else do they call themselves?

The ones I've worked with called themselves things like "Bob",
"Charlie", and "Sue", while they went out of their way to certify my
glider, set up our wave windows, and get me the waiver I requested.


Lucky you, you ran into the minority...


It's not luck when it happens repeatedly over a 30 year period at
multiple FSDOs, towers, and elsewhere. I do know people that always seem
to get the obnoxious ones, and it's not luck then, either.

Touche Eric, I was wondering if there was a good way to say that.

I wouldn't be so much in agreement if I were you.

Ever hear of an outfit the FAA calls the "Charter Quest Team"? It's a little
group the FAA has put together to blast the livelihood from under part 135
operators on the basis of murky interpretations of "operational control".
They don't talk to the FSDO's that have authority over the operators, the
FAA won't tell you who they are or where they work out of, and if you ask
them what rules the team is working under, the request is refused and you
are pointed to FOIA procedures. These are people who have already been at
work destroying companies who have done nothing wrong other than try to live
to up to the spirit of regulations and "do the right thing." You think luck
is involved in any way in this? Even the NTSB has blasted this hit man team
the FAA has put together. You had better hope your luck holds out if you run
into them.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Interesting. Can you give any cites?
Brad


Juan Jimenez wrote:
"Bruce Greef" wrote in message
...
Eric Greenwell wrote:
Juan Jimenez wrote:

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:BI5ah.13303$_x3.11069@trndny02...

Juan Jimenez wrote:
ect certification of an individual aircraft.

Ron Wanttaja

C'mon Ron. You make it sound like the FAA guys are an officious bunch
of self righteous bureaucrats!

What else do they call themselves?

The ones I've worked with called themselves things like "Bob",
"Charlie", and "Sue", while they went out of their way to certify my
glider, set up our wave windows, and get me the waiver I requested.


Lucky you, you ran into the minority...


It's not luck when it happens repeatedly over a 30 year period at
multiple FSDOs, towers, and elsewhere. I do know people that always seem
to get the obnoxious ones, and it's not luck then, either.

Touche Eric, I was wondering if there was a good way to say that.

I wouldn't be so much in agreement if I were you.

Ever hear of an outfit the FAA calls the "Charter Quest Team"? It's a little
group the FAA has put together to blast the livelihood from under part 135
operators on the basis of murky interpretations of "operational control".
They don't talk to the FSDO's that have authority over the operators, the
FAA won't tell you who they are or where they work out of, and if you ask
them what rules the team is working under, the request is refused and you
are pointed to FOIA procedures. These are people who have already been at
work destroying companies who have done nothing wrong other than try to live
to up to the spirit of regulations and "do the right thing." You think luck
is involved in any way in this? Even the NTSB has blasted this hit man team
the FAA has put together. You had better hope your luck holds out if you run
into them.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Of course. NTSB dockets SE-17831 and SE-17832 from Administrative Law Judge
William R. Mullins. The final decision on appeal should have been issued
already, but the Oral Decision and Order issues October 17, 2006 speaks for
itself.

"A couple other comments on the Charter Quest Team, Mr. Riley talked about
the fact that they have their own rules. They don't have to follow that
handbook on operational control and I certainly believe him but that in and
of itself is kind of a scary approach in my opinion. We have a federal
government agency that's trying to regulate in an area and their regulatory
team doesn't even have rules that are published so that somebody can see
what they are coming out to look at or how they are going to go about it.
And then, Mr. Weitzenhoffer suggested to counsel that if he wanted this
secret document, he could issue FOIA request for it. The concern that I have
is that if a document is only to be obtained by a FOIA request, either by an
airman, a certificate holder, or the National Transportation Safety Board,
then it's not entitled to any deference by the National Transportation
Safety Board."

Pretty strong words from an NTSB judge, if I may say so. I tried to get the
FAA to give me more info on this. They went so far as to acknowledge the
team's existence, and that's it. No names, no location, no rules or
authority except by FOIA request. In the meanwhile, in this example over 100
people had to be laid off, just a couple months before Xmas, and the
consequences are all piling up.

I called AOPA and no one knew about the "team". Neither does NBAA, or anyone
else I talked to. And yet, they have authority to issue emergency orders of
revocations of certificates.

"Brad" wrote in message
oups.com...
Interesting. Can you give any cites?
Brad


Juan Jimenez wrote:
"Bruce Greef" wrote in message
...
Eric Greenwell wrote:
Juan Jimenez wrote:

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:BI5ah.13303$_x3.11069@trndny02...

Juan Jimenez wrote:
ect certification of an individual aircraft.

Ron Wanttaja

C'mon Ron. You make it sound like the FAA guys are an officious
bunch
of self righteous bureaucrats!

What else do they call themselves?

The ones I've worked with called themselves things like "Bob",
"Charlie", and "Sue", while they went out of their way to certify my
glider, set up our wave windows, and get me the waiver I requested.


Lucky you, you ran into the minority...


It's not luck when it happens repeatedly over a 30 year period at
multiple FSDOs, towers, and elsewhere. I do know people that always
seem
to get the obnoxious ones, and it's not luck then, either.

Touche Eric, I was wondering if there was a good way to say that.

I wouldn't be so much in agreement if I were you.

Ever hear of an outfit the FAA calls the "Charter Quest Team"? It's a
little
group the FAA has put together to blast the livelihood from under part
135
operators on the basis of murky interpretations of "operational control".
They don't talk to the FSDO's that have authority over the operators, the
FAA won't tell you who they are or where they work out of, and if you ask
them what rules the team is working under, the request is refused and you
are pointed to FOIA procedures. These are people who have already been at
work destroying companies who have done nothing wrong other than try to
live
to up to the spirit of regulations and "do the right thing." You think
luck
is involved in any way in this? Even the NTSB has blasted this hit man
team
the FAA has put together. You had better hope your luck holds out if you
run
into them.




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Juan Jimenez wrote:
"Bruce Greef" wrote in message
...

Eric Greenwell wrote:

Juan Jimenez wrote:


"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:BI5ah.13303$_x3.11069@trndny02...


Juan Jimenez wrote:
ect certification of an individual aircraft.


Ron Wanttaja

C'mon Ron. You make it sound like the FAA guys are an officious bunch
of self righteous bureaucrats!

What else do they call themselves?

The ones I've worked with called themselves things like "Bob",
"Charlie", and "Sue", while they went out of their way to certify my
glider, set up our wave windows, and get me the waiver I requested.


Lucky you, you ran into the minority...


It's not luck when it happens repeatedly over a 30 year period at
multiple FSDOs, towers, and elsewhere. I do know people that always seem
to get the obnoxious ones, and it's not luck then, either.


Touche Eric, I was wondering if there was a good way to say that.


I wouldn't be so much in agreement if I were you.

Ever hear of an outfit the FAA calls the "Charter Quest Team"? It's a little
group the FAA has put together to blast the livelihood from under part 135
operators on the basis of murky interpretations of "operational control".
They don't talk to the FSDO's that have authority over the operators, the
FAA won't tell you who they are or where they work out of, and if you ask
them what rules the team is working under, the request is refused and you
are pointed to FOIA procedures. These are people who have already been at
work destroying companies who have done nothing wrong other than try to live
to up to the spirit of regulations and "do the right thing." You think luck
is involved in any way in this? Even the NTSB has blasted this hit man team
the FAA has put together. You had better hope your luck holds out if you run
into them.



Juan

You have my sympathy. Having met some of the bureaucracy the USA seems to
specialise in I try to avoid the place completely. But I must agree that , when
dealing with bureaucrats there is a lot more to be gained from a little courtesy
and and a lot of preparation. Frequently the person you are dealing with falls
into one of two categories.
1] He/she is completely clueless and will only do what is in their procedures
and guidelines. Heaven help you if you meet one of ours who is functionally
illiterate, and so only knows a small fraction of the rules, but applies those
with vigour.
2] Alternatively it might be someone who is knowledgeable about your sport, and
probably does not agree with many of the painful regulations they are paid to
enforce.

Whatever, in general the person you are dealing with has limited ability to
accommodate you. It can take some time , and requires willing on their part to
find ways around 'problems'. If you retain your manners and make it easy for
them to help you, it is amazing how much better the experience gets. (Again a
generalisation, you are always going to get some jerks in any population.)

On the subject of the "Charter Quest Team" - this sounds like another of the
little holy wars American officialdom seems to specialise in. Some genius
somewhere formed a plan to raise their profile... Eventually after the damage
they are doing becomes apparent, someone works out it was a lousy idea.

"Bruce Greef" wrote in message
...


You have my sympathy. Having met some of the bureaucracy the USA seems to
specialise in I try to avoid the place completely. But I must agree that ,
when dealing with bureaucrats there is a lot more to be gained from a
little courtesy and and a lot of preparation. Frequently the person you
are dealing with falls into one of two categories.
1] He/she is completely clueless and will only do what is in their
procedures and guidelines. Heaven help you if you meet one of ours who is
functionally illiterate, and so only knows a small fraction of the rules,
but applies those with vigour.
2] Alternatively it might be someone who is knowledgeable about your
sport, and probably does not agree with many of the painful regulations
they are paid to enforce.

The problems I've run into fall into three categories.

One is the bureaucrat who is hellbent on controlling people's lives in some
way and finds whatever excuse he thinks he can justify to exercise that
control, in this case over someone's interest in aviation. This type of
person relies on the fact that the system makes it hard (read espen$ive) for
individuals to push back.

The second one I've run into is the kind who thinks they are doing you a
favor by doing their job, for which our taxes pay their salaries. After
exhausting all possible avenues and exercising patience over a period as
long as two years, in some cases I've been forced to notify the FAA my next
stop will be a federal district attorney to file charges and start throwing
people in jail (it was that bad). In one case, a documented I needed to have
reviewed and approved was sat on for 2 years. When I did this, it was
approved within a week.

The third is the schmuck who will throw obstacles in your way unless you pay
homage to him in some fashion.

All three are examples of what happens when there is little or no oversight
over the activities of these federal employees.

Whatever, in general the person you are dealing with has limited ability
to accommodate you. It can take some time , and requires willing on their
part to find ways around 'problems'. If you retain your manners and make
it easy for them to help you, it is amazing how much better the experience
gets. (Again a generalisation, you are always going to get some jerks in
any population.)

Of course, but there is a limit in which retaining manners just doesn't
work, and you have to forcefully remind them that you are not asking for
favors. For example, responses to request for services that state that what
I am asking for is "not a priority of this office" are unacceptable, period.
If it's part of their job, they have to take care of the issue within a
reasonable amount of time. If I have to do legwork and paperwork in order to
accelerate things, fine, but telling me "No." will not be tolerated.

On the subject of the "Charter Quest Team" - this sounds like another of
the little holy wars American officialdom seems to specialise in. Some
genius somewhere formed a plan to raise their profile... Eventually after
the damage they are doing becomes apparent, someone works out it was a
lousy idea.

And in the meanwhile, people lose their jobs, entrepeneurs who worked their
asses off to build a business see it crumble because of some dip****
bureaucrat, and nothing truly positive is accomplished.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

("Ron Wanttaja" wrote)
Beyond that, I can't tell you the operating limitations.

The planes aren't just built to factory plans, they are considered factory
aircraft. Daimler Benz Aerospace assigned them the next five serial
numbers on from the wartime records.


I would hope one of the operating limitations would be: No crossing state
borders in support of ground forces.


Montblack
Now, if we can also limit the number of Minnesota bound U-boats heading up
the Mississippi River...

On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 16:58:31 -0600, "Montblack"
wrote:

("Ron Wanttaja" wrote)
Beyond that, I can't tell you the operating limitations.

The planes aren't just built to factory plans, they are considered factory
aircraft. Daimler Benz Aerospace assigned them the next five serial
numbers on from the wartime records.


I would hope one of the operating limitations would be: No crossing state
borders in support of ground forces.


Montblack
Now, if we can also limit the number of Minnesota bound U-boats heading up
the Mississippi River...

Don't worry you're safe now that your coast guard has promised live
ammo practice on the great lakes. If that doesn't scare them away, are
depth charges part of their arsenal?