Kills with Guns

Whevever I see a TV show about the F-4, all the AF guys do is bitch
about the early models not having a gun. Just how many kills (if any)
have the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F-18 had with guns???

"Schlomo Lipchitz" wrote in message
...
Whevever I see a TV show about the F-4, all the AF guys do is bitch
about the early models not having a gun. Just how many kills (if any)
have the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F-18 had with guns???

On the Navy side, Zero for the F-14 and F-18. I don't think the USAF
F-15/16 drivers have ever gotten a gun kill either, it's possible the
Israelis have. With modern missile systems, you generally have to drive
through the missile envelope to get to guns, so it makes little sense to
pass up the opportunity and expose yourself more than necessary. A gun kill
in a post-Vietnam world would also often require entering a hard-maneuvering
engagement that is generally an unhealthy place to be.

An interesting note. Most Vietnam gun kills were scored by the F-105,
perhaps the least maneuverable aircraft in wide service there.

R / John

On the Navy side, Zero for the F-14 and F-18. I don't think the USAF
F-15/16 drivers have ever gotten a gun kill either, it's possible the
Israelis have. With modern missile systems, you generally have to drive
through the missile envelope to get to guns, so it makes little sense to
pass up the opportunity and expose yourself more than necessary. A gun
kill in a post-Vietnam world would also often require entering a
hard-maneuvering engagement that is generally an unhealthy place to be.

According to a recent interview I saw on TV, at least one Israeli pilot got
a guns kill in a F-15 on a Mig-21 solely for the prestige of getting a guns
kill. That blurs the fine line between being bold and being stupid! Hard
to argue with their record though. Funny comment about the Thud kills- it
reminds of G.I. Basel's: "It wasn't a memorable battle. They didn't see me.
I whispered 'Jesus' and filled the sky with 20 mm bullets. It didn't seem
fair, I wanted to honk or something." Perhaps the most humble account of an
a-a kill I've ever heard!

TV

On Jun 30, 1:54 pm, "John Carrier" wrote:
"Schlomo Lipchitz" wrote in message

...

Whevever I see a TV show about the F-4, all the AF guys do is bitch
about the early models not having a gun. Just how many kills (if any)
have the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F-18 had with guns???

On the Navy side, Zero for the F-14 and F-18. I don't think the USAF
F-15/16 drivers have ever gotten a gun kill either, it's possible the
Israelis have. With modern missile systems, you generally have to drive
through the missile envelope to get to guns, so it makes little sense to
pass up the opportunity and expose yourself more than necessary. A gun kill
in a post-Vietnam world would also often require entering a hard-maneuvering
engagement that is generally an unhealthy place to be.

An interesting note. Most Vietnam gun kills were scored by the F-105,
perhaps the least maneuverable aircraft in wide service there.

No Crusader gun kills?


R / John

No Crusader gun kills?

If I'm not mistaken, there were only 3-4 kills out of the 19-20 that the
Crusader got in Vietnam. The rest were Sidewinder kills. So like I said
below, this goes against the idea of the gun being critical to a-a success
in Vietnam. Only a fool would argue that it wouldn't have helped to have a
gun on all the F-4s, but it wouldn't have been as revolutionary as some
claim IMO. There were F-4 gun kills too, but again, far fewer than missile
kills (even for the -E). ROE, training, NCTR, and missile reliability were
the more critical factors IMO.

TV

On Sun, 1 Jul 2007 00:25:48 -0400, "TV" wrote:

No Crusader gun kills?

If I'm not mistaken, there were only 3-4 kills out of the 19-20 that the
Crusader got in Vietnam. The rest were Sidewinder kills. So like I said
below, this goes against the idea of the gun being critical to a-a success
in Vietnam. Only a fool would argue that it wouldn't have helped to have a
gun on all the F-4s, but it wouldn't have been as revolutionary as some
claim IMO. There were F-4 gun kills too, but again, far fewer than missile
kills (even for the -E). ROE, training, NCTR, and missile reliability were
the more critical factors IMO.

TV


There were quite a few F-4E gun kill in SEA and even several F-4D pod
gun kills. Dee Simmons got two with a podded gun. Saw Big D a couple
of days ago at Robin Olds' memorial service.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

There were quite a few F-4E gun kill in SEA and even several F-4D pod
gun kills. Dee Simmons got two with a podded gun. Saw Big D a couple
of days ago at Robin Olds' memorial service.

Olds died and it wasn't even mentioned here!?! Wow. For a long time, based
on interview snippets I heard from him, I thought he was an arrogant git.
But I saw a TV interview of him, that was fairly recent, where a lot of
those comments were shown to be taken out of context. Confident, yes. Git,
not. Great stories in general, and he definitely projected a solid image.

Coincidentally Ed, I'm just reading Palace Cobra now. I might have more
questions when I finish, but for now do you mind if I ask:

1- Relating to this thread, what do you think was most missing from U.S.
A-A? Guns, more reliable missiles, better ROE, Combat Tree (NCTR), or better
communication (like when you guys got robbed of thos Migs- the
"Mig-hoarding" of Udorn reminds me of the 55th in Desert Storm)? Or just
more Migs?

2- Would you have prefered to fly the F-105G or the F-4E for your missions?
For the planes as well as for the separate hunter/killer missions.

3- This relating to Olds. I also recently read Going Downtown. Having read
Thud Ridge a long time ago, it was also pretty decent. Broughton certainly
didn't suffer from lack of confidence either! I know you and the other
River Rats don't feel the warmest feelings towards him, but I was wondering
why when he was on trial (and Yeager was backing him up, so he couldn't have
been a total buffoon), Olds backed away from the trial. Career politics or
something more personal? I certainly don't want to much rake Olds in any
way, I'm curious about the history of the moment. General Ryan certainly
seemed like a jack-ass.

4- Did they really conduct an ORI in the middle of a successful air
campaign?!

Thanks,

TV

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On Jun 30, 1:54 pm, "John Carrier" wrote:
"Schlomo Lipchitz" wrote in message

...

Whevever I see a TV show about the F-4, all the AF guys do is bitch
about the early models not having a gun. Just how many kills (if any)
have the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F-18 had with guns???

On the Navy side, Zero for the F-14 and F-18. I don't think the USAF
F-15/16 drivers have ever gotten a gun kill either, it's possible the
Israelis have. With modern missile systems, you generally have to drive
through the missile envelope to get to guns, so it makes little sense to
pass up the opportunity and expose yourself more than necessary. A gun
kill
in a post-Vietnam world would also often require entering a
hard-maneuvering
engagement that is generally an unhealthy place to be.

An interesting note. Most Vietnam gun kills were scored by the F-105,
perhaps the least maneuverable aircraft in wide service there.

No Crusader gun kills?

The question was about the modern aircraft. For the F-8, if I counted
correctly, 4 with the gun only, 3 more sidewinder + gun. And one with no
ordnance expended ;-).

R / John

On Jul 1, 7:24 am, "John Carrier" wrote:
wrote in message

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On Jun 30, 1:54 pm, "John Carrier" wrote:
"Schlomo Lipchitz" wrote in message

...

Whevever I see a TV show about the F-4, all the AF guys do is bitch
about the early models not having a gun. Just how many kills (if any)
have the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F-18 had with guns???

On the Navy side, Zero for the F-14 and F-18. I don't think the USAF
F-15/16 drivers have ever gotten a gun kill either, it's possible the
Israelis have. With modern missile systems, you generally have to drive
through the missile envelope to get to guns, so it makes little sense to
pass up the opportunity and expose yourself more than necessary. A gun
kill
in a post-Vietnam world would also often require entering a
hard-maneuvering
engagement that is generally an unhealthy place to be.

An interesting note. Most Vietnam gun kills were scored by the F-105,
perhaps the least maneuverable aircraft in wide service there.

No Crusader gun kills?

The question was about the modern aircraft.

Hey, you brought up the 105s.....22.5 gun kills? I just figured the
Crusaders had gotten a few because they were the last "gunfighters".

For the F-8, if I counted
correctly, 4 with the gun only, 3 more sidewinder + gun. And one with no
ordnance expended ;-).

The old "He's on my tail....eject!" or just flew into the ground
trying to evade?


R / John- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

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On Jul 1, 7:24 am, "John Carrier" wrote:
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On Jun 30, 1:54 pm, "John Carrier" wrote:
"Schlomo Lipchitz" wrote in message

...

Whevever I see a TV show about the F-4, all the AF guys do is bitch
about the early models not having a gun. Just how many kills (if
any)
have the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F-18 had with guns???

On the Navy side, Zero for the F-14 and F-18. I don't think the USAF
F-15/16 drivers have ever gotten a gun kill either, it's possible the
Israelis have. With modern missile systems, you generally have to
drive
through the missile envelope to get to guns, so it makes little sense
to
pass up the opportunity and expose yourself more than necessary. A
gun
kill
in a post-Vietnam world would also often require entering a
hard-maneuvering
engagement that is generally an unhealthy place to be.

An interesting note. Most Vietnam gun kills were scored by the F-105,
perhaps the least maneuverable aircraft in wide service there.

No Crusader gun kills?

The question was about the modern aircraft.

Hey, you brought up the 105s.....22.5 gun kills? I just figured the
Crusaders had gotten a few because they were the last "gunfighters".

For the F-8, if I counted
correctly, 4 with the gun only, 3 more sidewinder + gun. And one with no
ordnance expended ;-).

The old "He's on my tail....eject!" or just flew into the ground
trying to evade?


Frank Bachman and Jerry Tucker (VF-24 IIRC, Hancock) got a vector in second
half of '72. The Crusader community was quite frustrated by this time
because only the F-4's were getting vectors, let alone getting tally-ho's.
Canopy flash at about 5 NM, started a conversion with a Mig-17 and visually
ID'd the bandit with a bit more than 90 to go. Prior to rolling out in
envelope, the guy ejected. They thought it'd be pretty cool, one Mig kill
shared, no ordnance expended. Ship was given credit for the kill.

No telling what was going on with the Mig driver. Perhaps under training on
his first FAM solo. A mainenance check flight gone bad. Maybe a cripple
just trying to limp home. Allegedly, the Vietnamese transmitted something
akin to "Oh !*&!!", they're F-8's" and then punched. Good sea story
regardless, and like many somewhat improbable and colorful in the community,
true.

R / John