Privatizing Red Air Gaining Momentum

One problem with the current state of organic adversary is that it's almost
all similar aircraft. As the Navy transitions to an all F-18 force, it'd be
beneficial to face other airframes in training ... something other than a
VCF F-18.

The A-4 makes a great BFM bogey, but it has its limitations as well. While
current doctrine discourages a merge to engage, it can happen. I'd like to
see an adversary that is a challenge to the effort to DISengage (Kfirs and
F-16s were formidable in that respect ... the A-4 wasn't). The Superbug has
a notable flaw in its inability to accelerate and leave a fight ... training
against other bugs or A-4's will not help the development of good tactical
technique in the most difficult of maneuvers.

My point is that ATSI doesn't seem to offer any fast movers (the Mig-29 ala
the novel would be nice) and the lack of such an aircraft would impact their
effectiveness. And the costs to train to and support such a jet are greater
than the A-4.

R / John

On 8/5/03 6:24 AM, in article , "John
Carrier" wrote:

One problem with the current state of organic adversary is that it's almost
all similar aircraft. As the Navy transitions to an all F-18 force, it'd be
beneficial to face other airframes in training ... something other than a
VCF F-18.

John,

This is a shortcoming I had overlooked. It's especially valid when two
groups of two meet at the merge.


The A-4 makes a great BFM bogey, but it has its limitations as well. While
current doctrine discourages a merge to engage, it can happen. I'd like to
see an adversary that is a challenge to the effort to DISengage (Kfirs and
F-16s were formidable in that respect ... the A-4 wasn't). The Superbug has
a notable flaw in its inability to accelerate and leave a fight ... training
against other bugs or A-4's will not help the development of good tactical
technique in the most difficult of maneuvers.

My point is that ATSI doesn't seem to offer any fast movers (the Mig-29 ala
the novel would be nice) and the lack of such an aircraft would impact their
effectiveness. And the costs to train to and support such a jet are greater
than the A-4.


Concur. Good points all.

--Woody

R / John

John- As the Navy transitions to an all F-18 force, it'd be
beneficial to face other airframes in training ... something other than a
VCF F-18.
BRBR

heard from the last CO of VFC-13 that F-16s are a comin...Failed Pakastani
deal...


P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

heard from the last CO of VFC-13 that F-16s are a comin...Failed Pakastani
deal...

EXACTLY what they need. Let's hope it pans out.

R / John

dano- When were you at VX-4? (I may know some people you flew with.)
BRBR

Apr '88-Dec '89-


P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

John- EXACTLY what they need. Let's hope it pans out. BRBR

No kiddin'...the 26 F-16N, of which I had 6, was the best A-A training platform
ever devised...MUCH better than the F-5, They can be used for all the Cat 4+
sims even now...

Easy to fly, maintain, superior cockpit..
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

On 8/6/03 8:13 AM, in article ,
"Pechs1" wrote:

John- EXACTLY what they need. Let's hope it pans out. BRBR

No kiddin'...the 26 F-16N, of which I had 6, was the best A-A training
platform
ever devised...MUCH better than the F-5, They can be used for all the Cat 4+
sims even now...

Easy to fly, maintain, superior cockpit..
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

I'm surprised you guys hadn't heard this before. Last time I checked, NSAWC
was sending guys through the RTU's. Although as of last fall, I hadn't seen
any yet.

I agree. This is a GREAT thing for Naval Aviation.

--Woody

I agree. This is a GREAT thing for Naval Aviation.

Not as good as the F-16N, but.... these are basic F-16A/B with the old P&W
engine. Pechs would find them a bit "emasculated".
_____________
José Herculano

Jose'- Not as good as the F-16N, but.... these are basic F-16A/B with the
old P&W
engine. Pechs would find them a bit "emasculated". BRBR

As a guy that flew F-4s and A-4s older than the plane captains that cleaned
them...I wouldn't..

Even the F-16A was light years more advanced than the tired block 130 F-14s I
flew....

Loved the F-16N tho...but i think the F-16A/B is a tremendous idea for USN
adversary...and ya know, the more things change, the more they stay the
same...I remember when the F-16Ns went away...and all the BS hoopla by
NAVAIRSYSCOM about cracks and such...cuz these F-16s were accepted w/o somebody
checking with SYSCOM and their rice bowl..they had a axe to grind until they
went away...Never liked 'Duke's folly'...

Any idea if there are contract or USN maintenance??
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

On 8/7/03 8:52 AM, in article ,
"Pechs1" wrote:

Jose'- Not as good as the F-16N, but.... these are basic F-16A/B with the
old P&W
engine. Pechs would find them a bit "emasculated". BRBR

As a guy that flew F-4s and A-4s older than the plane captains that cleaned
them...I wouldn't..

Even the F-16A was light years more advanced than the tired block 130 F-14s I
flew....

Loved the F-16N tho...but i think the F-16A/B is a tremendous idea for USN
adversary...and ya know, the more things change, the more they stay the
same...I remember when the F-16Ns went away...and all the BS hoopla by
NAVAIRSYSCOM about cracks and such...cuz these F-16s were accepted w/o
somebody
checking with SYSCOM and their rice bowl..they had a axe to grind until they
went away...Never liked 'Duke's folly'...

Any idea if there are contract or USN maintenance??
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Pechs,

My guess is that since they're at TG (NSAWC) they'll be contract. It's all
contract there these days.

--Woody