Why We Lost The Vietnam War

(B2431) wrote in message ...
From: (ZZBunker)
Date: 1/26/2004 7:01 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(B2431) wrote in message
...
From: IBM
Date: 1/26/2004 1:17 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(ZZBunker) wrote in
. com:

[snip]

No! Since we have to keep reminding the British
that the *Vikings*, not the British discovered New Foundland.
And when they did it, there *was no* Atlantic Ocean.

Tweren't even the Brits to be precise.
Just another itinerant Genovese snake-oil salesman.

IBM


There wasn't an ocean there?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Well, since those of us with brains don't even
ask active duty US Navy people about oceans,
it goes without saying that the last
people we people we ever ask questions
about oceans are retired US Air Force people.
The only thing we advise them is to buy a
condo somewhere in Florida, and buy three
.44 Magums. One for you, one for your
Marine wife, and one loaded one for
the people who can shoot.

Gee, you are so funny. The original poster said

begin quote

No! Since we have to keep reminding the British that the *Vikings*, not the
British discovered New Foundland. And when they did it, there *was no*
Atlantic Ocean.

end quote

If taken literally he was saying there was no ocean there hence my wise ass
question.

You should be taken literally, since I'm both the
original poster and somebody understands
computers, rather than a lawyer.

There was obviously a body of water there long before
and after the Vikings crossed it. But since the
Vikings also knew about Greenland long before
the Air Force invaded it, that's two for the
Vikings, and zero for the Air Force.




As for my shooting abilities I am an NRA shooting instructor and earned
marksmanship awards in both the Army and the Air Force. Oh, and it is spelled
"magnums" which you would know if you actually had the brains you claim.

Have a fine day.

It only spelled magnums by the Army, The Texas NRA Shotgun
Wannabee Association, and States that lost the Civil War.
In New York it's spelled Magner Force.


Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

"Spiv" wrote in message
...

If Gander is the other side of the Atlantic then it is the first
transatlantic service. Can't you figure that out?


The first transatlantic air service was via zeppelin.

"Andrew Chaplin" wrote in message ...
"ANDREW ROBERT BREEN" wrote in message
...

[1] Though the Ilyshin-62 certainly suggests - by eye at least - that
someone had taken a long, hard look at a Super VC10 before picking
up their pencil.

I have a suggestion about the Ilyshin-62, *stay away*. I flew on a CSA
Il-62 out of Beirut in 1993. The seating, even in first class, was like
being strapped into a lawn chair. The pitch of the seats was generous,
but you could not reach the seat pocket without unbuckling your seat
belt. The baggage handlers put my dog and her crate in the passenger
cabin with us because they could not be sure of she would not freeze in
the hold.

The Czechs used to keep two fat guys on call to sit on either side of
Western passengers. One requirement was they eat their lunch just
before takeoff and outgass to relieve cabin pressure at regular
intervals. Not my experience but one of a very thin friend.

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...

"Spiv" wrote in message
...

The Comet is still flying (the Nimrod) . The last civilian plane was in
1987. That is a long civilian service life. The British government
prevented one of the last from being sold to the USA.

This means the last Comet retired from service while the
Boeing 707 line was still producing new aircraft since the
last 707 rolled off the lines in 1991.

Or was it 1997

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...

"Spiv" wrote in message
...



The Comet is still flying (the Nimrod) . The last civilian plane was in
1987. That is a long civilian service life. The British government
prevented one of the last from being sold to the USA.



This means the last Comet retired from service while the
Boeing 707 line was still producing new aircraft since the
last 707 rolled off the lines in 1991.

Think about it.

I did and the Comet was introduction for longer being about 10 years ahead
of the 707 - a pioneering ground breaking plane. History will show it far
more important to aircraft advancement than the 707.

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...

"Eunometic" wrote in message
om...


With a modified Fueselage it of course became a great maritime patrol
aircraft known as the Nimrod. Nimrod is apparently superior than the
Orion: at least as far as the airframe is concerned.


Please xplain your reasons for arriving at this conclusion.
While the Nimrod is a fine aircraft the P-3 has had rather
more export success.

Our master of logic enters the fray. The VC10 and Super VC10 was a superior
plane to the 707, yet the 707 outsold it.

The burried engines ( speys and now BMW/Rolls Royce BR715 ) provide a
significantly reduced radar signature. (Here lies the disadvantage of
burried eingines: installing high bypass ratio engines required
re-engineering of the wing roots)

I seriously doubt that any real advantage accrues from this.
Nimrod has a LARGE radar signature.

The engines which are close to the fueselage mean that opperation with
engines shutdown does not create significant asymetric thrust
problems. Indeed opperation on 2 engines is I believe normal on long
loitering patrols.

The latest Nimrods I believe have a range in excess of 6500nm and can
launch cruise missiles. They can be armed with sidewinders and
presumably AMRAAM style self homing missiles is a possibility.


AMRAAM is highly unlikley

He is gussing now.

With the correct systems and sighting they might even provide the RAF
with a mini B52. The big wings must provide good altitude
performance.

Thats just silly. Nimrod simly doesnt have the payload carrying capacity.
The RAF used to have a mini B-52 , it was called the Vulcan

You must read what was written.

"Gord Beaman" wrote in message
...
"Spiv" wrote:

Now now Keith. Newfoundland is on the western edge of the
Atlantic so it WAS 'transatlantic' wasn't it?...

No! Since we have to keep reminding the British
that the *Vikings*, not the British discovered New Foundland.
And when they did it, there *was no* Atlantic Ocean.

Did this ocean appear afterwards?

Christ!...musta been one bitch of a rainstorm wot?.

Or someone towed Newfoundland from Scotland to Canada.

"Spiv" wrote in message
...

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...

"Spiv" wrote in message
...



The Comet is still flying (the Nimrod) . The last civilian plane was
in
1987. That is a long civilian service life. The British government
prevented one of the last from being sold to the USA.



This means the last Comet retired from service while the
Boeing 707 line was still producing new aircraft since the
last 707 rolled off the lines in 1991.

Think about it.

I did and the Comet was introduction for longer being about 10 years ahead
of the 707 - a pioneering ground breaking plane.


Hardly

The Comet I entered passenger service in late 1952 and carried only 36
passengers, the remaining fleet was permanently grounded in early 1954
by which time 5 out of the 9 built had crashed

The Comet 4 didnt enter service until April 1958 only a few months
ahead of the 707-120

History will show it far
more important to aircraft advancement than the 707.

It has the distinction of being the first but the simple fact is that
Boeing made a shed load of money selling over 1000 aircraft
and went on to build almost 3/4 of the airliners in service
in western markets by the early 90's

DeHavilland sold a grand total of 46 Comet 4 aircraft

Keith

"Peter Stickney" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Eunometic) writes:
(Peter Stickney) wrote in message
. com...
Peter Skelton wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 00:49:41 -0500, (Peter
Stickney) wrote:

To add some Military Content. The groundings and losses did not
necessarily mean the immediate scrapping of the Comet I. DH _did_
infact, come up with a rebuild program that would allow the airplane
to have some useful life. The only Comet Customer who took them up
on
this was the Royal Canadian Air Force, which had purchased two
Comets
to support the First Air Division in Europe. These remained in
service until the early 1960s.

ISTR Comets in service with Freddie Laker into the 70's. Dan Air
used them until Nov. 3, '80 (something over 110 passengers which
must have been fun.)

Those were Comet IVs, not Comet Is. Basically an entirely new
airframe with a Comet-like shape. They were entirely redesigned
structurally, and a bit larger. (71,760 kg MTOW rather than
47,620 kg) They used Rolls Avons (With about twice the push)
rather than the centrifugal DH Ghosts.
The Comet IV was actually a pretty good airplane. Unfortunately,
it took about 4 years to get the Comet IV redesigned and off the
ground. By that time, instead of competing with DC-6s and Lockheed
749 Constellations, it was competing with the Boeing 707 and the
Douglas DC-8. At that point, it was too slow, and too short-ranged.
(Pan Am 707 used to take off about a half-hour after BOAC Comet IVs,
and they made a point of announcing when they passed the Comets
somewhere between Iceland and Greenland.

With a modified Fueselage it of course became a great maritime patrol
aircraft known as the Nimrod. Nimrod is apparently superior than the
Orion: at least as far as the airframe is concerned.

Nimrods are a bit faster than P-3s. That's not really relevant
though, when looking for submarines. They're both big enough, fast
enough when need be, and slow enough when need be.

Being slow enough is very important for those types of planes.

The Orion beats in
wrt fuel consumption, The efficiency of the sensor suites is about
equivalent, with a little seesawing back & forth depending on what
point in time you're comparing the two.

It's kind of ironic that the Orion also grew out of a semi-successful
1950s airliner with a troubled beginning - the Lockheed L-188 Electra,
the fastes of the Western prop-driven airliners (The Tu-114 can beat
it) L-188s also suffered a spate of mysterious crashes. In their
case, it was a resonant vibration in damaged engine mounts that
induced fuilure in the wing spar. Like the COnet, it got fixed (A bit
more quickly - they didn't have to redesign the entire airplane),

The Electra was hardly a plane making history and catapulting technology as
was the Comet. The lessons from the Comet, the most extensive research
into one plane and metal fatigue ever, were used on virtually every plane
after in some way or other.

but
it took time to rebuild public confidence, and the introduction of
pure jets on U.S. Domestic routes killed off demand.


The burried engines ( speys and now BMW/Rolls Royce BR715 ) provide a
significantly reduced radar signature. (Here lies the disadvantage of
burried eingines: installing high bypass ratio engines required
re-engineering of the wing roots)

Not really. The fan sections are entirely exposed within the ducts,
and they're spinning pretty fast - that makes the return scintillate,
which makes it easier to pick out of clutter, if you know how to look
at it. With that big honkin' wing, and the large, slab sided
fuselage, even if it was a bit less obvious, it's a distincion without
a difference.

The engines which are close to the fueselage mean that opperation with
engines shutdown does not create significant asymetric thrust
problems. Indeed opperation on 2 engines is I believe normal on long
loitering patrols.

Asymmetric operation with an Orion isn't much of a big deal, either,
although it can be a handful in some circumstances. Remember that it
had to be able to climb out on 3 engines on takeoff, with a load of
passengers aboard.

Early on, it was policy on teh P-3 to patrol on 2 engines. The
occasional difficulty in getting them both started again, and the need
to have as many alternators running a possible to supply th
electrical buses has changed that so that they only cage 1
engines. (The last I heard - one of my former bosses was a Navy
Reserve P-3 Pilot)

The latest Nimrods I believe have a range in excess of 6500nm and can
launch cruise missiles. They can be armed with sidewinders and
presumably AMRAAM style self homing missiles is a possibility.

P-3s are good for about 4500 NM, including 3 hours stooging around at
20,000', and 1 houf chasing contacts at 200', with a 10% reserve.

As for what it carries, we've got all teh Cruise Missile carriers the
START Treaties will allow. (That's what happens when you're a Major
Nuclear Power ) So we can't fit Tomahawks or ALCMs. However, it
will carry a whole raft of Harpoons & SLAM-ERs, which are Cruise
Missiles of a somewhat more subdued nature. I don't recall if
anybody's stuck a Sidewinder on a P-3, but there's no reason why you
can't. A SIrewinder requires a standard rack to fit the rail to, soem
wires to wake it up, and some wires to insert the seeker's growl into
the intercom system.
AMRAAMs are right out, for either. While an AMRAAM has an active
seeker, it still needs a fighter-type Fire COntrol System to properly
program it before launch.

With the correct systems and sighting they might even provide the RAF
with a mini B52. The big wings must provide good altitude
performance.

As for the Nimrod being a mini-B-52, well, we've got B-52s to fill
that role.

His point is that it can be used for other functions too, which is cost
effective. B52/Vulcan types of planes cost a "fortune" to make and
maintain - 40 million people in the USA are excluded from medical care, make
the armed forces more efficient and your people, benefit. The Nimrod was
fitted with sidewinders during the Falklands war.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
link.net...

"Spiv" wrote in message
...

If Gander is the other side of the Atlantic then it is the first
transatlantic service. Can't you figure that out?

The first transatlantic air service was via zeppelin.

The topic is jets.