US Competition Pilot Poll and Election

Branko,

You can say that again. Funerals are probably what it will take unfortunately.

5000 words. That's funny that someone counted them. For me it was 45 minutes of cell phone typing on the bus/cab/car to the airport.

Much of this crowd is afraid of open forum and frank talk.

They shouldn't be. It's healthy. I have nothing to hide. Neither should anyone else hide their feelings. That's the problem, many of the good old boys have deep passions, but they are afraid to debate. The RC is a system of control for them.

Tha assigned task is legal under US rules. The finish gate is legal under US rules. There is nothing that stops a CD from calling huge assigned tasks and a 50 foot finish gate every day, if pilots at a contest want it. This is not a rules issue.

Sean, you're the one trying to ban things from the top.

And we've been through this over and over and over and over. Please find something productive to do

John Cochrane

John,

Saying that "certain features" of FAI rules are available today for SSA (US rules) CDs to use, if they wish (wink, wink), is entirely different than a discussion about the value that US rules provide and if we should switch to FAI based on an objective discussion about that measured value of US rules. When is the last time that a US/SSA sanctioned contest used a starting line, or finish line? And seriously, a SSA contest CD calling an assigned tasks is about as rare as purple flying unicorn rides at Walmart. These things are so rare here in the United States and Canada that they are entirely irrelevant to discuss or offer.

I, for one, want to fly ALL US glider competitions under the exact system that the rest of the world uses. FAI. Period. Specific features "offered" by US rules are not the solution. FAI RULES are used by ALL OTHER SOARING COUNTRIES safely, happily and effectively.

The only solution, for me, is the SSA shelving its custom/falied US rules experiiment and rejoining the FAI rules community. The SSA being a true partner of the world soaring competition community (FAI), rather than a challenger/loner at every turn. Rejoining FAI has loads of other important value for all current and future US pilots. And, of course, there is a significant savings in annual cost (time and energy (and ire)) of endlessly maintaining our custom, experimental and failed (zero measurable value) US rules system. We can repurpose those volunteers to other objectIves rather than re-creating everything from scratch and constantly changing.

This is a question of major religions, not a splitting hairs debate about enabling/disabling minor features within the same religion.

I think this debate is very productive. For us youngins, it sets the stage for where the SSA can go in 3-5 years. Perhaps 10. Perhaps sooner!

Bottom line, US rules do not add value. Why waste all that time and effort and irritation? You boys can simply walk away from this madness. Then we can only complain to the FAI. You'll be free!

Sean

On Tuesday, October 4, 2016 at 12:18:06 PM UTC-6, wrote:
Hello US contest pilots.
The annual competition rules poll and election of rules subcommittee members is now open at
http://www.adamsfive.com/a5soaring/survey/surveys.php
The poll and election is open to all pilots on the ranking list.
Please take the time to fill out the poll. provide comments and input and vote for
your next representative.
UH
SSA RC Chair

Trust me #6 is just the best!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw9-xVCmLP0

Best. Tom #711.

But the fact is, with AT available, CDs are not hearing a loud chorus from pilots, "give us long hard ATs with lots of gaggles and landouts." If that were happening, the US RC (That I am not a member of) would be moving in your direction. The RC wants happy pilots, pretty much period. If the pilots start clamoring for long hard ATs, gaggles and landouts, then you'd have some sort of leg to stand on. Till then, my view of the pilot-friendly RC is that they're not going to ram anything down pilots and CDs throats.

John Cochrane

John,

Um, did you really just tell me that assigned tasks equal "lots of gaggles and lots of land-outs." Do you really believe that? Is that really what you think assigned tasks represent to the sport of soaring? The sport of sailplane racing worldwide? WOW. Just wow. I am shocked and embarrassed by your viewpoint.

First, what is the matter with landing out? Are you saying US rules contests do not result in any land outs? Are you claiming that US contests produce less land outs that FAI? I think the numbers would surprise you...

That kind of pure & ridiculous bias, from you or the typical US RC member of recent years, is exactly the problem with the SSA. It is also why we are in a steady decline. US contests are hardly a sport anymore. Statements like yours above infuriate many. Saying assigned tasks are about "lots of gaggles and lots land outs" is also simply untrue. It is intentionally misleading. You should be ashamed. US rules (and especially tasking) really is a religion to you. Unfortunately, it appears to be fairly radical one.

How long until you guys start sending the suicide bombers up my driveway. ;-) Geeze. Sorry man, yeah, I would like to race my sailplane. Please? I would like to fly more that ONE assigned task a year in a US contest. What the hell is so wrong with racing? You guys have already set up US contests to result in 97% experimental, timed, pilot option, OLC tasks? Do you really intend to make US contests 100% OLC? Really? That is criminal. That is malpractice. That is ridiculous. That is incredibly bad for the sport. No wonder the FAI essentially ignores the US.

The truth is that FAI Assigned Tasks (US AT's simply do not qualify as racing) are about sailplanes racing around a set track. Assigned tasks are also, by far, the easiest task for a beginner to learn. No computer needed. No learning how to determine when to turn for the finish, (also requiring significant computer expertise), etc. No scoring software needed either. FAI Assigned Tasks are regularly used in ALL other soaring nations, worldwide. Only the USA (under the leadership of the SSA and its RC) does not use assigned tasks in its competitions. And all other soaring countries fly assigned tasks regularly, happily, safely and successfully in their sailplane competitions. It is really, really arrogant of you to say, "assigned tasks are about lots of gaggles and land outs..." Are you saying that the soaring world is "full of idiots" for flying assigned tasks? Sure seems to me that you are saying exactly that. Is the world really aiming to land out lots? Utterly ridiculous.

Last I checked, even your own SSA website states "Glider racing" on the home page and throughout the site. You might want to get that fixed. Becuase US tasking produces exactly ZERO RACING. This is a cold, hard fact. A fact you are apparently very happy about.

The US Rules governed SSA contests result in roughly 3% AT's (US, non-race AT's) annually. Without question, the weather required to support great AT racing occurs far, far more than 3%. For other folks reading this, before John claims otherwise with another bias, untrue whopper, AT's are, generally, called on days with strong weather and no thunderstorm risk. Sure, a mass land out might happen, but that is highly unlikely.

Labelling AT's as assuring lots of lots of gaggle's and lots of land outs is ridiculous. You are better than this John. Seriously, I hope that you are better than this.

I thought you wanted world-style racing. That involves 1/3 - 2/3 assigned tasks, typically longer than US tasks, and the rest turn area tasks. There are lots more landouts at worlds.

I didn't realize that now you want short assigned tasks where everyone gets home, not the real world experience.

And again and again and again... CDs can call all the assigned tasks they want. If that's all you want it's in the rules now.

John Cochrane

BB,

Thank you for all that you have done for soaring. John you are a winner in my book for even making it into the world championships.

Do you think you could had a better chance of winning the world championships if you had been practicing under the standard fai rules? Or at least had a higher score? How difficult was it to change gears from one set of rules to the other?

Respectfully,
MJ

Rules were not such a big deal. Tactics were enormous, and both my biggest failures and greatest learning experience. In weak weather the gaggle tactics are everything. It doesn't require just flying under their rules. You have to fly really big contests, and fly with them. You have to anticipate what the other gliders will do, and where the gaggle will form. Who was to know that the upwind end of the start line at 5000' was the wrong place to be, and the downwind end at 2500' was the right place to be? (Because that's where the germans and french were, hence the gaggle formed there, left form there and hung together through abysmal weak first leg).

Yes, if the US had a vibrant contest scene with 65 gliders in each nationals class, all flying exactly under IGC rules, with long long tasks, lots of landouts, lots of foreigners coming to fly so we see how they fly and learn to anticipate their moves, we would do better at worlds, and I would have done a lot better at worlds.

Just passing "use IGC rules" for every contest in the US will not make that happen. Most of our nationals classes struggle to attract 15-20 pilots. Those pilots don't aggressively fly gaggles even if they are flying AT. If we fly contests so you absolutely must have a crew or a motor, half of the pilots including me will not show up. The crowd who now flies OLC will absolutely not show up. 6 pilots flying together under IGC rules is worse training than 25 pilots flying under US rules. 50 pilots flying under US rules is even better. A huge difference at worlds is just the size of the thing. When there are 15 contenders it's a lot different than when there are three. When the sky is full of gliders you get a lot more practice at gaggle flying than when there are only a few of you, and who cares about the scoring formula.

The right answer are specialized contests and events in the US run to train for world events. The US team is making that happen. The grand prix are making that happen.

We have the assigned task. We have the turn area task. Nationals call maybe one MAT per contest. Tasking is really not an issue. The only difference between US and IGC rules is a slightly more complex scoring formula under IGC rules. The big difference is the size and competitiveness of the contests.. No change in rules, especially one that makes it harder to attend, is going to fix that

John Cochrane

On Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 9:35:31 AM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:
Rules were not such a big deal. Tactics were enormous, and both my biggest failures and greatest learning experience. In weak weather the gaggle tactics are everything. It doesn't require just flying under their rules. You have to fly really big contests, and fly with them. You have to anticipate what the other gliders will do, and where the gaggle will form. Who was to know that the upwind end of the start line at 5000' was the wrong place to be, and the downwind end at 2500' was the right place to be? (Because that's where the germans and french were, hence the gaggle formed there, left form there and hung together through abysmal weak first leg).

Yes, if the US had a vibrant contest scene with 65 gliders in each nationals class, all flying exactly under IGC rules, with long long tasks, lots of landouts, lots of foreigners coming to fly so we see how they fly and learn to anticipate their moves, we would do better at worlds, and I would have done a lot better at worlds.

Just passing "use IGC rules" for every contest in the US will not make that happen. Most of our nationals classes struggle to attract 15-20 pilots. Those pilots don't aggressively fly gaggles even if they are flying AT. If we fly contests so you absolutely must have a crew or a motor, half of the pilots including me will not show up. The crowd who now flies OLC will absolutely not show up. 6 pilots flying together under IGC rules is worse training than 25 pilots flying under US rules. 50 pilots flying under US rules is even better. A huge difference at worlds is just the size of the thing. When there are 15 contenders it's a lot different than when there are three.. When the sky is full of gliders you get a lot more practice at gaggle flying than when there are only a few of you, and who cares about the scoring formula.

The right answer are specialized contests and events in the US run to train for world events. The US team is making that happen. The grand prix are making that happen.

We have the assigned task. We have the turn area task. Nationals call maybe one MAT per contest. Tasking is really not an issue. The only difference between US and IGC rules is a slightly more complex scoring formula under IGC rules. The big difference is the size and competitiveness of the contests. No change in rules, especially one that makes it harder to attend, is going to fix that

John Cochrane

Well said John, thanks! Where's the "like" button? ;-)

Craig Funston