How scary is gasohol?

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 14:23:29 -0600, Russell Kent
wrote:
snip
OK, the long answer would require a significant amount of college-level
chemistry. The short answer is ethanol (grain alcohol, the alcohol that is used
as an oxygenate in gasoline) would prefer to be mixed with water rather than
gasoline. So if you take a known quantity of water and agitate it with a
comparable amount of gasoline containing some alcohol, then when the churning
stops some portion of the alcohol that was in solution with the gasoline is now
in solution with the water. Since the water-gasoline boundary is easily seen,
and since the addition of the alcohol to the water makes the water+alcohol
solution have more volume, then the if the water-gasoline boundary moves up
(more water volume), there is alcohol in the gasoline.
snip

So what happens if you fill your wings partway with auto gas, add a
bunch of water with a lot of splashing, wait a few minutes and then
drain the sumps until no more water comes out? Can you extract the
ethanol from the gas that way? (What about the octane number? Well,
suppose you only need 80/87 like Jay. What if you start with
premium?)

Note: This is a gedanken experiment only. Do not try this at home.

Don

Don Tuite wrote:

So what happens if you fill your wings partway with auto gas, add a
bunch of water with a lot of splashing, wait a few minutes and then
drain the sumps until no more water comes out? Can you extract the
ethanol from the gas that way?

Short answer: Yes. This is called "washing" (no, I'm not kidding).

Slightly longer, qualified answer: Can you extract *enough* alcohol from the autogas
to make the remainder effectively alcohol-free? Yes, given enough washings. Each
wash will remove less alcohol. At some point the alcohol left dissolved in the auto
gas will be negligible. What else would you be washing out? Damned if I know.
Probably some detergents.

(What about the octane number?

It will go down. If you care, add MTBE (it doesn't conflict with either the EAA or
Petersen STCs).

Well, suppose you only need 80/87 like Jay. What if you start with premium?)

It may not be necessary. Depending on the supplier/distributor, the premium gas may
not be oxygenated with alcohol. If it is, then you may end up with rather expensive
regular unleaded, as the alcohol is likely the major octane boosting component.

Note: This is a gedanken experiment only. Do not try this at home.

Good, because intentionally introducing water into an airplane fuel tank seems like a
terribly risky proposition. I wonder if either the EAA or Petersen STCs mention
water as an unacceptable gasoline component...

Russell Kent

frank wrote:

Usw a tall thin bottle, like Olive jar, shows up easily.

Yuck! Who eats PB&O sandwiches? :-)

Russell Kent

Don Tuite wrote:

So what happens if you fill your wings partway with auto gas, add a
bunch of water with a lot of splashing, wait a few minutes and then
drain the sumps until no more water comes out?

Always, always, always, ask yourself "How will this look on the NTSB report?".

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote:

Don Tuite wrote:

So what happens if you fill your wings partway with auto gas, add a
bunch of water with a lot of splashing, wait a few minutes and then
drain the sumps until no more water comes out?

Always, always, always, ask yourself "How will this look on the NTSB report?".

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

That's my golden rule!

Margy

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 15:58:37 -0600, Russell Kent
wrote:

frank wrote:

Usw a tall thin bottle, like Olive jar, shows up easily.

Yuck! Who eats PB&O sandwiches? :-)

Pregnant persons?

Don

I can't imagine that it would be to hard to retrofit just about any
airplane to run on ethanol and autofuel.
Seals and fuel lines can be easily replaced and even fuel bladders could
be replaced if they are not compatible to allow the use of ethanol.
The cost savings of using autofuel/ethanol would still be there.

Could you imagine having an aviation newsgroup posting data like:
"...prior to any flight I usually add a little Jack Daniels or in a
pinch I'll use MMO with a little Absolute...."


Mike Spera wrote:

You might be able to burn 10,000 gallons of ethanol spiked auto fuel
with absolutely no problems. However, if you ever did have a problem...
any problem... even one totally unrelated to fuel (like your mechanic
forgot to put the bolts back in the cylinders), you would probably be
blamed because you used ethanol in your fuel.

The question in aviation is not whether or not "something" will cause a
problem, the question is whether you you want to be held responsible for
"everything" BECAUSE you did the "something".

When auto fuel was first introduced, there was a huge outcry that planes
would be "falling from the sky" because of it. A few old carb floats
that should have been replaced anyway disintegrated. And, a few Cherokee
fuel selector shaft seals (that were due for replacement anyway) seeped.
And whenever a plane quits unexpectedly while on auto fuel, the ever
mysterious "vapor lock" is blamed.

Looks like similar hysteria surrounds ethanol. No science or testing.
Just opinions and lots of "maybes". I hear that "IF you use ethanol, and
IF you have water in the fuel, and IF the ethanol absorbs it, and IF you
fly your Cherokee (with a max ceiling of 10k feet) up to 20k feet (or to
where it is REALLY COLD), THEN....MAYBE... once in a million, ice MAY
form and clog a fuel line/pump/carburetor.

Anyway, none of it matters. The STC says "no", whether it is dangerous
or not.

Good Luck,
Mike



Charles Talleyrand wrote:

My auto-fuel-stc says very clearly that one cannot use gasoline with
any type of alcohol in it. I understand that beyond the reg itself, the
main reason is that fuel lines can swell if they come into contact with
alcohol cutting of the flow of fuel to the engine.

I'm going to obey the reg (really. actually, honestly.). I'm just
curious.
How likely is alcohol to actually hurt or stop my engine or airplane?

-Just Curious
-A Cessna 150 Driver




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See here, on page 4...
http://www.eaa.org/education/fuel/autogas_vs_avgas.pdf

Basics, are a tall and relatively thin cylinder, holding perhaps a cup
100ml) of fluid... Make a mark at roughly 10% of the way from the bottom...
Make another mark near the top... Fill with water to lower mark,
accurately... Fill with gas to upper mark, accurately... Put hand now
smelly over the mouth and shake it well... Let stand to settle the water
for a couple of minutes whilst you do other things..
If the water level to the lower mark has now moved upwards you have (had)
alcohol... If the gas level at the upper mark has moved, you goofed - or
the cat has a bad huffing habit......

If nothing has changed, carefully decant pour the good gas back into the
can and throw the water away...
denny

"Jay Honeck" wrote We haven't been testing our
auto gas for alcohol, but I would like to.

dave wrote in message news:hdU_b.55090$4o.73519@attbi_s52...
I can't imagine that it would be to hard to retrofit just about any
airplane to run on ethanol and autofuel.
Seals and fuel lines can be easily replaced and even fuel bladders could
be replaced if they are not compatible to allow the use of ethanol.
snip

Replacing every seal, flexible fuel line and bladder can certainly
be done, but I doubt the average description of this process would be
"not too hard".

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

http://www.eaa.org/education/fuel/autogas_vs_avgas.pdf

Thanks, Denny. Good stuff there!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"