Nimbus 4DT accident 31 July 2000 in Spain.

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:46:39 UTC, Marian Aldenh”vel
wrote:

From what I have seen our instructors do I feel absolutely sure they
have the confidence _and_ the ability to recover safely from an abort
at any stage.

Ah, but do they have the confidence and ability to recover safely from
a failed attempt to recover safely from an attempt at any stage?

Ian

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:09:41 UTC, Bruce Hoult wrote:

In article dzZo7CxomoOm-pn2-dS4dGzUePd3d@localhost,
"Ian Johnston" wrote:

My experience is that practice cable breaks almost invariably happen
very early, when landing ahead is dead easy, or very late, when a mini
circuit is dead easy. They rarely happen at that awkward in-between
point ...

Oh. So you're not supposd to thermal away from a cable break, then?

Only if you're too low to do a circuit.

Ian

On 30 Jun 2005 10:50:59 GMT, "Ian Johnston"
wrote:

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:02:39 UTC, Marian Aldenh”vel
wrote:

Before soloing we do a minimum of three excercises where the instructor
pulls the knob at some point during the launch. So it's the real thing,
nothing "emergency-like" there.

Do the instructors have the confidence, though, to pull the bung at
times when there is only one option, and geting it wrong means you're
stuffed?

Such a situation does not exist during a winch launch. The worst thing
that can happen is a long way to the other end of the runway to get
the glider back for its next launch.

We are doing such an exercise pretty oftern, I have to admit.

Bye
Andreas

On 30 Jun 2005 12:10:56 GMT, "Ian Johnston"
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:46:39 UTC, Marian Aldenh”vel
wrote:

From what I have seen our instructors do I feel absolutely sure they
have the confidence _and_ the ability to recover safely from an abort
at any stage.

Ah, but do they have the confidence and ability to recover safely from
a failed attempt to recover safely from an attempt at any stage?

Yup.
There is no failed first attempt to recover - during a halfways
properly executed winch-launch the glider is always in a situation
where recovery is *alway* going to work on the first attempt, even if
you execute the recovery with only 75 percent perfection.


On the other hand: If you have failed the first attempt to recover,
you usually don't get a second chance in a winch launch...


Bye
Andreas

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:26:35 UTC, (Andreas Maurer)
wrote:

On 30 Jun 2005 12:10:56 GMT, "Ian Johnston"
wrote:

Ah, but do they have the confidence and ability to recover safely from
a failed attempt to recover safely from an attempt at any stage?

Yup.
There is no failed first attempt to recover - during a halfways
properly executed winch-launch the glider is always in a situation
where recovery is *alway* going to work on the first attempt, even if
you execute the recovery with only 75 percent perfection.


On the other hand: If you have failed the first attempt to recover,
you usually don't get a second chance in a winch launch...

Sorry, I was being unclear. What I meant was "... a failed attempt /by
the student/ to recover safely..." There are some places and heights
where the decision about where to go after the Big Bang hs to be made
very quickly, and right first time. And if the student gets it wrong
....

Ian

Ian Johnston writes
My experience is that practice cable breaks almost invariably happen
very early, when landing ahead is dead easy, or very late, when a mini
circuit is dead easy. They rarely happen at that awkward in-between
point

Contrary to my experience. As I recall, my last cable break practice
came earlier in the year, and the cable was pulled (without any
forewaring) specifically at that "awkward" height, an opportunity we
rarely get because of the amount of space we typically have but, on that
occasion, we were flying from the shorter cross-runway, so the
instructor intentionally jumped on the chance.

As I understand it from the explanation afterwards, the instructor had
already mapped out the available options and decided the rather tight
parameters that were going to prompt him to say "I have control" if I
failed to keep within them in handling the failure.

It was a valuable experience. Though I suspect that my decision to land
ahead (I rolled out next to the winch, safely under control, but
uncomfortably close to the airfield boundary, though I always had the
opt-out of closing the airbrakes and floating over the boundary into the
field beyond) would have been different had I been flying solo. It was a
very uncomfortable choice, and in the seconds I had to choose I think I
chose knowing that the guy in the back seat was poised ready to usurp my
control and take over if I chose was wrong. Solo and without that
backup, I'd have probably opted for a ninety degree turn and a crosswind
landing into our "south field" to my left.

--
Bill Gribble
http://www.scapegoatsanon.demon.co.uk
- Learn from the mistakes of others.
- You won't live long enough to make all of them yourself.

Bruce Hoult writes
Oh. So you're not supposd to thermal away from a cable break, then?

I believe it's considered bad form to do so from below about 20' as it
holds up the next launch

--
Bill Gribble
http://www.scapegoatsanon.demon.co.uk
- Learn from the mistakes of others.
- You won't live long enough to make all of them yourself.

Ian Johnston wrote:

the student/ to recover safely..." There are some places and heights
where the decision about where to go after the Big Bang hs to be made
very quickly, and right first time. And if the student gets it wrong

Then the instructor gives him exactly two tenths of a second to do the
right thing. Otherwise the instructor takes over and the student can try
again at the next launch.

Stefan

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:41:44 UTC, Stefan
wrote:

Ian Johnston wrote:

the student/ to recover safely..." There are some places and heights
where the decision about where to go after the Big Bang hs to be made
very quickly, and right first time. And if the student gets it wrong

Then the instructor gives him exactly two tenths of a second to do the
right thing. Otherwise the instructor takes over and the student can try
again at the next launch.

And that is my point: a practice winch launch failure isn't like a
real one, because ultimately you know that you won't be allowed to do
anything really stupid.

Ian

Ian Johnston wrote:

And that is my point: a practice winch launch failure isn't like a
real one, because ultimately you know that you won't be allowed to do
anything really stupid.

Your solution then for a more realistic training?

Stefan