End of Season Sunset Warning for SSA-OLC Participants

Ramy,

The point is that you are responsible for self enforcing the FARS.
What secondary oversight any other organization engages in shpould be
irrevelent. If you are so focused on determining what is going to be
looked at (with the implication that that is all you have to bother
comply with), then you clearly need to be monitored closely.

Ramy wrote:
Doug, none of this mention any particular FAR. Since obviously you are
not enforcing all FARs, when exactly was it decided which FARs are to
be enforced?

Ramy


Doug Haluza wrote:
Yuliy Gerchikov wrote:
"Paul Remde" wrote in message
news:KaRQg.200456$1i1.196173@attbi_s72...
Fly your task so that you land before any known definition of sunset and

...and they'll come up with a new one.

That is the problem with the rules being changed on the fly. You submit a
flight and never know who, when and why will be scrutinizing it and for what
violations. In this atmosphere of FUD, can you guarantee that the next
flight that you submit does not break any rules -- including those that
aren't defined yet?

This whole subtext of arbitrary rule making is becoming an Internet
myth, started and nurtured by people who assume that since they did it,
it must have been OK, and the trolls they feed with this logic. The
origin of the SSA FAR policy goes back more than a year, and is
repeatedly documented in the SSA Board Minutes. So it was not
arbitrary, or secret, or retroactive, or any of this nonsense.

Now I know most SSA members probably do not regularly review the Board
minutes, but they are published on the SSA website in the members
section. At the risk of injecting facts into an otherwise assumption
driven thread, here are the relevant quotes along with the links to the
source:

6/5/05
Agenda Item 16.0 On Line Contest Update Report

Mr. Garner reported on the work done to date on the development of a
Memorandum of
Understanding (MOU) with the On Line Contest owners concerning SSA's
participation in the
program.

During discussion, an issue of posting flights to the OLC where there
is a violation of a Federal
Aviation Administration rule (such as an airspace restriction) came to
the fore. The committee
agreed that no badge or record should be approved if the flight
involves unsporting behavior as
set out in the FAI Sporting Code. The committee also agreed that a
statement of policy on this
issue must be carefully worded. The committee asked that this issue be
referred to the Badge
and Record Committee for a policy that can ultimately be approved by
the Board of Directors.
Chairman Carswell agreed to review the draft MOU again before
proceeding. The sense of the
committee indicates the desire to proceed with an agreement with the
OLC officials.

ACTION ITEMS RESULTING FROM THE MEETING
11. The Executive Committee asked that the Badge and Record Committee
be asked for a
statement of policy concerning the disallowance of any badge or record
flight that
involves the violation of an FAR.

http://www.ssa.org/download/ExCom_2005_Jun_05_Final.pdf

9/30/05
Agenda Item 11.0 SSA/OLC/FARs

Mr. Garner reported on the discussions that had taken place prior to
the meeting concerning the
issue of possible violations of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR)
in flights posted on the
On-Line Contest (OLC), flying in SSA sanctioned contests, and flying
for badges and records.
This issue would be further discussed at the meeting of the Board of
Directors.

http://www.ssa.org/download/00-Final...tes%209-30.pdf

10/1/05
Agenda Item 9.0 Vice Chair Member Services & Information (Garner)

Mr. Garner reported on the On Line Contest (OLC). He advised a MOU had
been signed which
gives SSA exclusive right to the OLC in the U.S. This included hang
gliders as well. SSA did not
write the rules, just administer them. He reported that some flights
had been posted which
showed possible violations of FARs. He requested that a written policy
be adopted addressing
this problem.

A lengthy discussion ensued and Mr. Spratt moved to table the
discussion of this and form a task
force to recommend SSA policy on FARs. Mr. Reid seconded the motion and
it passed 14 in
favor, 7 against.

Mr. Reid moved the SSA adopt as official policy to FAR violations "The
policy of the SSA is
that FARs must be observed." Mr. Mockler seconded the motion, and it
passed unanimously.
A task force to study the application of this policy was formed with
Mr. Reid as Chairman, and
members, Ms. Brickner, Mr. Sorenson and Mr. Garner.

http://www.ssa.org/download/2005_Oct_01_draft.pdf

12/10/05
Agenda Item 11 OLC Enforcement Procedure

Mr. Garner introduced a paper with a draft enforcement policy that
would supplement the
Federal Aviation Regulation Policy approved by the Board at its meeting
in October, 2005. The
enforcement policy was then discussed at length, the provisions of
which were generally agreed
to. The committee asked that a sub-committee of the Badge and Record
Committee be
established to enforce this policy and to report to the Board of
Directors on the number of pilots
that are sanctioned under the terms of this policy. The policy will be
mounted on the web site.

ACTION ITEMS RESULTING FROM THE MEETING
7. A sub-committee of the Badge and Record Committee will be
established to enforce the
policy on FAR violations, and report to the Board of Directors on the
number of pilots
that are sanctioned under the terms of this policy.

http://www.ssa.org/download/00-PostedMinutes12-10.pdf

2/3/06
Agenda Item 7.0 - Vice Chair - Reid
. . .
Reid reported on detailed implementation of the SSA s general policy
that FARs must be
observed and referred to the draft motion in the Board Book. After
discussion, Reid
proposed and Hines seconded the following motion - "The SSA Board of
Directors can,
at its discretion, review the circumstances involving any flight and
can, at its discretion
after receiving the advice of any responsible committee, take any
action at any time it
deems appropriate". After discussion, the motion was passed with one
vote against.

http://www.ssa.org/download/2006_Feb_03_draft.pdf

No Quebec Tango, this wasn't the point. The point is that Doug claims
that the sunset rule was not arbitrarily enforced, but the quotes he
provided do not mention any particular FAR. So my question remains:
When exactly was it decided which FAR to enforce and which not, and
when/where was it communicated?


Quebec Tango wrote:
Ramy,

The point is that you are responsible for self enforcing the FARS.
What secondary oversight any other organization engages in shpould be
irrevelent. If you are so focused on determining what is going to be
looked at (with the implication that that is all you have to bother
comply with), then you clearly need to be monitored closely.

Ramy wrote:
Doug, none of this mention any particular FAR. Since obviously you are
not enforcing all FARs, when exactly was it decided which FARs are to
be enforced?

Ramy


Doug Haluza wrote:
Yuliy Gerchikov wrote:
"Paul Remde" wrote in message
news:KaRQg.200456$1i1.196173@attbi_s72...
Fly your task so that you land before any known definition of sunset and

...and they'll come up with a new one.

That is the problem with the rules being changed on the fly. You submit a
flight and never know who, when and why will be scrutinizing it and for what
violations. In this atmosphere of FUD, can you guarantee that the next
flight that you submit does not break any rules -- including those that
aren't defined yet?

This whole subtext of arbitrary rule making is becoming an Internet
myth, started and nurtured by people who assume that since they did it,
it must have been OK, and the trolls they feed with this logic. The
origin of the SSA FAR policy goes back more than a year, and is
repeatedly documented in the SSA Board Minutes. So it was not
arbitrary, or secret, or retroactive, or any of this nonsense.

Now I know most SSA members probably do not regularly review the Board
minutes, but they are published on the SSA website in the members
section. At the risk of injecting facts into an otherwise assumption
driven thread, here are the relevant quotes along with the links to the
source:

6/5/05
Agenda Item 16.0 On Line Contest Update Report

Mr. Garner reported on the work done to date on the development of a
Memorandum of
Understanding (MOU) with the On Line Contest owners concerning SSA's
participation in the
program.

During discussion, an issue of posting flights to the OLC where there
is a violation of a Federal
Aviation Administration rule (such as an airspace restriction) came to
the fore. The committee
agreed that no badge or record should be approved if the flight
involves unsporting behavior as
set out in the FAI Sporting Code. The committee also agreed that a
statement of policy on this
issue must be carefully worded. The committee asked that this issue be
referred to the Badge
and Record Committee for a policy that can ultimately be approved by
the Board of Directors.
Chairman Carswell agreed to review the draft MOU again before
proceeding. The sense of the
committee indicates the desire to proceed with an agreement with the
OLC officials.

ACTION ITEMS RESULTING FROM THE MEETING
11. The Executive Committee asked that the Badge and Record Committee
be asked for a
statement of policy concerning the disallowance of any badge or record
flight that
involves the violation of an FAR.

http://www.ssa.org/download/ExCom_2005_Jun_05_Final.pdf

9/30/05
Agenda Item 11.0 SSA/OLC/FARs

Mr. Garner reported on the discussions that had taken place prior to
the meeting concerning the
issue of possible violations of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR)
in flights posted on the
On-Line Contest (OLC), flying in SSA sanctioned contests, and flying
for badges and records.
This issue would be further discussed at the meeting of the Board of
Directors.

http://www.ssa.org/download/00-Final...tes%209-30.pdf

10/1/05
Agenda Item 9.0 Vice Chair Member Services & Information (Garner)

Mr. Garner reported on the On Line Contest (OLC). He advised a MOU had
been signed which
gives SSA exclusive right to the OLC in the U.S. This included hang
gliders as well. SSA did not
write the rules, just administer them. He reported that some flights
had been posted which
showed possible violations of FARs. He requested that a written policy
be adopted addressing
this problem.

A lengthy discussion ensued and Mr. Spratt moved to table the
discussion of this and form a task
force to recommend SSA policy on FARs. Mr. Reid seconded the motion and
it passed 14 in
favor, 7 against.

Mr. Reid moved the SSA adopt as official policy to FAR violations "The
policy of the SSA is
that FARs must be observed." Mr. Mockler seconded the motion, and it
passed unanimously.
A task force to study the application of this policy was formed with
Mr. Reid as Chairman, and
members, Ms. Brickner, Mr. Sorenson and Mr. Garner.

http://www.ssa.org/download/2005_Oct_01_draft.pdf

12/10/05
Agenda Item 11 OLC Enforcement Procedure

Mr. Garner introduced a paper with a draft enforcement policy that
would supplement the
Federal Aviation Regulation Policy approved by the Board at its meeting
in October, 2005. The
enforcement policy was then discussed at length, the provisions of
which were generally agreed
to. The committee asked that a sub-committee of the Badge and Record
Committee be
established to enforce this policy and to report to the Board of
Directors on the number of pilots
that are sanctioned under the terms of this policy. The policy will be
mounted on the web site.

ACTION ITEMS RESULTING FROM THE MEETING
7. A sub-committee of the Badge and Record Committee will be
established to enforce the
policy on FAR violations, and report to the Board of Directors on the
number of pilots
that are sanctioned under the terms of this policy.

http://www.ssa.org/download/00-PostedMinutes12-10.pdf

2/3/06
Agenda Item 7.0 - Vice Chair - Reid
. . .
Reid reported on detailed implementation of the SSA s general policy
that FARs must be
observed and referred to the draft motion in the Board Book. After
discussion, Reid
proposed and Hines seconded the following motion - "The SSA Board of
Directors can,
at its discretion, review the circumstances involving any flight and
can, at its discretion
after receiving the advice of any responsible committee, take any
action at any time it
deems appropriate". After discussion, the motion was passed with one
vote against.

http://www.ssa.org/download/2006_Feb_03_draft.pdf

No Ramy, you just don't get it. You consistently argue that it is OK
to cheat if no one is watching. Why whould I ever want you in a game
with me? Your entire premise is wrong and unsportsmanlike.

Ramy wrote:
No Quebec Tango, this wasn't the point. The point is that Doug claims
that the sunset rule was not arbitrarily enforced, but the quotes he
provided do not mention any particular FAR. So my question remains:
When exactly was it decided which FAR to enforce and which not, and
when/where was it communicated?


Quebec Tango wrote:
Ramy,

The point is that you are responsible for self enforcing the FARS.
What secondary oversight any other organization engages in shpould be
irrevelent. If you are so focused on determining what is going to be
looked at (with the implication that that is all you have to bother
comply with), then you clearly need to be monitored closely.

Ramy wrote:
Doug, none of this mention any particular FAR. Since obviously you are
not enforcing all FARs, when exactly was it decided which FARs are to
be enforced?

Ramy


Doug Haluza wrote:
Yuliy Gerchikov wrote:
"Paul Remde" wrote in message
news:KaRQg.200456$1i1.196173@attbi_s72...
Fly your task so that you land before any known definition of sunset and

...and they'll come up with a new one.

That is the problem with the rules being changed on the fly. You submit a
flight and never know who, when and why will be scrutinizing it and for what
violations. In this atmosphere of FUD, can you guarantee that the next
flight that you submit does not break any rules -- including those that
aren't defined yet?

This whole subtext of arbitrary rule making is becoming an Internet
myth, started and nurtured by people who assume that since they did it,
it must have been OK, and the trolls they feed with this logic. The
origin of the SSA FAR policy goes back more than a year, and is
repeatedly documented in the SSA Board Minutes. So it was not
arbitrary, or secret, or retroactive, or any of this nonsense.

Now I know most SSA members probably do not regularly review the Board
minutes, but they are published on the SSA website in the members
section. At the risk of injecting facts into an otherwise assumption
driven thread, here are the relevant quotes along with the links to the
source:

6/5/05
Agenda Item 16.0 On Line Contest Update Report

Mr. Garner reported on the work done to date on the development of a
Memorandum of
Understanding (MOU) with the On Line Contest owners concerning SSA's
participation in the
program.

During discussion, an issue of posting flights to the OLC where there
is a violation of a Federal
Aviation Administration rule (such as an airspace restriction) came to
the fore. The committee
agreed that no badge or record should be approved if the flight
involves unsporting behavior as
set out in the FAI Sporting Code. The committee also agreed that a
statement of policy on this
issue must be carefully worded. The committee asked that this issue be
referred to the Badge
and Record Committee for a policy that can ultimately be approved by
the Board of Directors.
Chairman Carswell agreed to review the draft MOU again before
proceeding. The sense of the
committee indicates the desire to proceed with an agreement with the
OLC officials.

ACTION ITEMS RESULTING FROM THE MEETING
11. The Executive Committee asked that the Badge and Record Committee
be asked for a
statement of policy concerning the disallowance of any badge or record
flight that
involves the violation of an FAR.

http://www.ssa.org/download/ExCom_2005_Jun_05_Final.pdf

9/30/05
Agenda Item 11.0 SSA/OLC/FARs

Mr. Garner reported on the discussions that had taken place prior to
the meeting concerning the
issue of possible violations of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR)
in flights posted on the
On-Line Contest (OLC), flying in SSA sanctioned contests, and flying
for badges and records.
This issue would be further discussed at the meeting of the Board of
Directors.

http://www.ssa.org/download/00-Final...tes%209-30.pdf

10/1/05
Agenda Item 9.0 Vice Chair Member Services & Information (Garner)

Mr. Garner reported on the On Line Contest (OLC). He advised a MOU had
been signed which
gives SSA exclusive right to the OLC in the U.S. This included hang
gliders as well. SSA did not
write the rules, just administer them. He reported that some flights
had been posted which
showed possible violations of FARs. He requested that a written policy
be adopted addressing
this problem.

A lengthy discussion ensued and Mr. Spratt moved to table the
discussion of this and form a task
force to recommend SSA policy on FARs. Mr. Reid seconded the motion and
it passed 14 in
favor, 7 against.

Mr. Reid moved the SSA adopt as official policy to FAR violations "The
policy of the SSA is
that FARs must be observed." Mr. Mockler seconded the motion, and it
passed unanimously.
A task force to study the application of this policy was formed with
Mr. Reid as Chairman, and
members, Ms. Brickner, Mr. Sorenson and Mr. Garner.

http://www.ssa.org/download/2005_Oct_01_draft.pdf

12/10/05
Agenda Item 11 OLC Enforcement Procedure

Mr. Garner introduced a paper with a draft enforcement policy that
would supplement the
Federal Aviation Regulation Policy approved by the Board at its meeting
in October, 2005. The
enforcement policy was then discussed at length, the provisions of
which were generally agreed
to. The committee asked that a sub-committee of the Badge and Record
Committee be
established to enforce this policy and to report to the Board of
Directors on the number of pilots
that are sanctioned under the terms of this policy. The policy will be
mounted on the web site.

ACTION ITEMS RESULTING FROM THE MEETING
7. A sub-committee of the Badge and Record Committee will be
established to enforce the
policy on FAR violations, and report to the Board of Directors on the
number of pilots
that are sanctioned under the terms of this policy.

http://www.ssa.org/download/00-PostedMinutes12-10.pdf

2/3/06
Agenda Item 7.0 - Vice Chair - Reid
. . .
Reid reported on detailed implementation of the SSA s general policy
that FARs must be
observed and referred to the draft motion in the Board Book. After
discussion, Reid
proposed and Hines seconded the following motion - "The SSA Board of
Directors can,
at its discretion, review the circumstances involving any flight and
can, at its discretion
after receiving the advice of any responsible committee, take any
action at any time it
deems appropriate". After discussion, the motion was passed with one
vote against.

http://www.ssa.org/download/2006_Feb_03_draft.pdf

Quebec Tango wrote:
No Ramy, you just don't get it. You consistently argue that it is OK
to cheat if no one is watching. Why whould I ever want you in a game
with me? Your entire premise is wrong and unsportsmanlike.

Ramy wrote:
No Quebec Tango, this wasn't the point. The point is that Doug claims
that the sunset rule was not arbitrarily enforced, but the quotes he
provided do not mention any particular FAR. So my question remains:
When exactly was it decided which FAR to enforce and which not, and
when/where was it communicated?


Quebec Tango wrote:
Ramy,

The point is that you are responsible for self enforcing the FARS.
What secondary oversight any other organization engages in shpould be
irrevelent. If you are so focused on determining what is going to be
looked at (with the implication that that is all you have to bother
comply with), then you clearly need to be monitored closely.

Ramy wrote:
Doug, none of this mention any particular FAR. Since obviously you are
not enforcing all FARs, when exactly was it decided which FARs are to
be enforced?

Ramy

12/10/05

"Agenda Item 11 OLC Enforcement Procedure

Mr. Garner introduced a paper with a draft enforcement policy that
would supplement the
Federal Aviation Regulation Policy approved by the Board at its meeting
in October, 2005. The enforcement policy was then discussed at length,
the provisions of
which were generally agreed to. The committee asked that a
sub-committee of the Badge and Record Committee be established to
enforce this policy and to report to the Board of Directors on the
number of pilots that are sanctioned under the terms of this policy.
The policy will be mounted on the web site."

http://www.ssa.org/download/00-PostedMinutes12-10.pdf

"A posted flight that shows an FAR violation (such as entering Class A
airspace without a clearance or flying past sunset without lights) begs
for FAA action."

http://www.ssa.org/download/SSA%20Po...Violations.pdf

Are we done yet?

QT, If you read carefully the thread you may understand what my (and
few others) point is, but some people don't get. But I am not going to
continue arguing with you in public, you can email me privately and I
can explain it to you.

Quebec Tango wrote:
No Ramy, you just don't get it. You consistently argue that it is OK
to cheat if no one is watching. Why whould I ever want you in a game
with me? Your entire premise is wrong and unsportsmanlike.

Ramy wrote:
No Quebec Tango, this wasn't the point. The point is that Doug claims
that the sunset rule was not arbitrarily enforced, but the quotes he
provided do not mention any particular FAR. So my question remains:
When exactly was it decided which FAR to enforce and which not, and
when/where was it communicated?


Quebec Tango wrote:
Ramy,

The point is that you are responsible for self enforcing the FARS.
What secondary oversight any other organization engages in shpould be
irrevelent. If you are so focused on determining what is going to be
looked at (with the implication that that is all you have to bother
comply with), then you clearly need to be monitored closely.

Ramy wrote:
Doug, none of this mention any particular FAR. Since obviously you are
not enforcing all FARs, when exactly was it decided which FARs are to
be enforced?

Ramy


Doug Haluza wrote:
Yuliy Gerchikov wrote:
"Paul Remde" wrote in message
news:KaRQg.200456$1i1.196173@attbi_s72...
Fly your task so that you land before any known definition of sunset and

...and they'll come up with a new one.

That is the problem with the rules being changed on the fly. You submit a
flight and never know who, when and why will be scrutinizing it and for what
violations. In this atmosphere of FUD, can you guarantee that the next
flight that you submit does not break any rules -- including those that
aren't defined yet?

This whole subtext of arbitrary rule making is becoming an Internet
myth, started and nurtured by people who assume that since they did it,
it must have been OK, and the trolls they feed with this logic. The
origin of the SSA FAR policy goes back more than a year, and is
repeatedly documented in the SSA Board Minutes. So it was not
arbitrary, or secret, or retroactive, or any of this nonsense.

Now I know most SSA members probably do not regularly review the Board
minutes, but they are published on the SSA website in the members
section. At the risk of injecting facts into an otherwise assumption
driven thread, here are the relevant quotes along with the links to the
source:

6/5/05
Agenda Item 16.0 On Line Contest Update Report

Mr. Garner reported on the work done to date on the development of a
Memorandum of
Understanding (MOU) with the On Line Contest owners concerning SSA's
participation in the
program.

During discussion, an issue of posting flights to the OLC where there
is a violation of a Federal
Aviation Administration rule (such as an airspace restriction) came to
the fore. The committee
agreed that no badge or record should be approved if the flight
involves unsporting behavior as
set out in the FAI Sporting Code. The committee also agreed that a
statement of policy on this
issue must be carefully worded. The committee asked that this issue be
referred to the Badge
and Record Committee for a policy that can ultimately be approved by
the Board of Directors.
Chairman Carswell agreed to review the draft MOU again before
proceeding. The sense of the
committee indicates the desire to proceed with an agreement with the
OLC officials.

ACTION ITEMS RESULTING FROM THE MEETING
11. The Executive Committee asked that the Badge and Record Committee
be asked for a
statement of policy concerning the disallowance of any badge or record
flight that
involves the violation of an FAR.

http://www.ssa.org/download/ExCom_2005_Jun_05_Final.pdf

9/30/05
Agenda Item 11.0 SSA/OLC/FARs

Mr. Garner reported on the discussions that had taken place prior to
the meeting concerning the
issue of possible violations of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR)
in flights posted on the
On-Line Contest (OLC), flying in SSA sanctioned contests, and flying
for badges and records.
This issue would be further discussed at the meeting of the Board of
Directors.

http://www.ssa.org/download/00-Final...tes%209-30.pdf

10/1/05
Agenda Item 9.0 Vice Chair Member Services & Information (Garner)

Mr. Garner reported on the On Line Contest (OLC). He advised a MOU had
been signed which
gives SSA exclusive right to the OLC in the U.S. This included hang
gliders as well. SSA did not
write the rules, just administer them. He reported that some flights
had been posted which
showed possible violations of FARs. He requested that a written policy
be adopted addressing
this problem.

A lengthy discussion ensued and Mr. Spratt moved to table the
discussion of this and form a task
force to recommend SSA policy on FARs. Mr. Reid seconded the motion and
it passed 14 in
favor, 7 against.

Mr. Reid moved the SSA adopt as official policy to FAR violations "The
policy of the SSA is
that FARs must be observed." Mr. Mockler seconded the motion, and it
passed unanimously.
A task force to study the application of this policy was formed with
Mr. Reid as Chairman, and
members, Ms. Brickner, Mr. Sorenson and Mr. Garner.

http://www.ssa.org/download/2005_Oct_01_draft.pdf

12/10/05
Agenda Item 11 OLC Enforcement Procedure

Mr. Garner introduced a paper with a draft enforcement policy that
would supplement the
Federal Aviation Regulation Policy approved by the Board at its meeting
in October, 2005. The
enforcement policy was then discussed at length, the provisions of
which were generally agreed
to. The committee asked that a sub-committee of the Badge and Record
Committee be
established to enforce this policy and to report to the Board of
Directors on the number of pilots
that are sanctioned under the terms of this policy. The policy will be
mounted on the web site.

ACTION ITEMS RESULTING FROM THE MEETING
7. A sub-committee of the Badge and Record Committee will be
established to enforce the
policy on FAR violations, and report to the Board of Directors on the
number of pilots
that are sanctioned under the terms of this policy.

http://www.ssa.org/download/00-PostedMinutes12-10.pdf

2/3/06
Agenda Item 7.0 - Vice Chair - Reid
. . .
Reid reported on detailed implementation of the SSA s general policy
that FARs must be
observed and referred to the draft motion in the Board Book. After
discussion, Reid
proposed and Hines seconded the following motion - "The SSA Board of
Directors can,
at its discretion, review the circumstances involving any flight and
can, at its discretion
after receiving the advice of any responsible committee, take any
action at any time it
deems appropriate". After discussion, the motion was passed with one
vote against.

http://www.ssa.org/download/2006_Feb_03_draft.pdf

Yes, thanks Doug. Now I wish it would have been communicated better...

Ramy

Doug Haluza wrote:

"Agenda Item 11 OLC Enforcement Procedure

Mr. Garner introduced a paper with a draft enforcement policy that
would supplement the
Federal Aviation Regulation Policy approved by the Board at its meeting
in October, 2005. The enforcement policy was then discussed at length,
the provisions of
which were generally agreed to. The committee asked that a
sub-committee of the Badge and Record Committee be established to
enforce this policy and to report to the Board of Directors on the
number of pilots that are sanctioned under the terms of this policy.
The policy will be mounted on the web site."

http://www.ssa.org/download/00-PostedMinutes12-10.pdf

"A posted flight that shows an FAR violation (such as entering Class A
airspace without a clearance or flying past sunset without lights) begs
for FAA action."

http://www.ssa.org/download/SSA%20Po...Violations.pdf

Are we done yet?

Paul Remde wrote:

"Andy" wrote in message
oups.com.

Given the uncertainty of the actual official sunset time I repeat my
request that SAA's sunset time be used only to determine the "end of
soaring flight" and not used to determine the validity of the entire
flight.

I must respectfully disagree. If we just use sunset as the end of soaring
flight that gives an unfair advantage to a pilot that is far from home or at
altitude when the sun sets. He/she should have planned ahead and landed on
time.

I think calling sunset the end of soaring flight for the OLC is fine if
the pilot is given a few minutes more to land. If the flight continues
beyond that it could be considered sufficient evidence of poor planning,
or bad faith, and the whole flight automatically disallowed.

"SS + 0:05" might work for everybody in determining when to disqualify
an entire flight, and not require the services of both defense counsel
and a battery of astronomers just to mollify a nanny SSA-OLC.

And who cares how far from home the pilot is? Let him land out and walk
home, as long as the ship touched down within a few minutes of whatever
"FAA Official Sunset" might have been at that place and time. There are
no declarations necessary, nor is OLC an assigned task. Next thing we
know, we'll be needing Official Observers.


Jack

Ramy wrote:
Well, SeeYou shows the sunset time, so I guess this is what Doug is
using.
Paul, your suggetion will work for short to medium or yoyo tasks when
one can plan to land way before sunset or can abort the task. But this
does not work for long O&R and triangle tasks, especially in the great
basin, where weaker conditions on course can slow you down
significantly. When this happens there are only two choices, to fly
back home and potentially land after sunset, or landout in the middle
of nowhere before sunset, hope you don't break anything, then spend a
freezing night in the cockpit waiting for your retrieve.

We'd all choose to fly home, but we don't have to post that flight on
the OLC. Doug isn't suggesting you do something stupid to get some OLC
points, but he is asking you don't post flights that clearly go beyond
sunset.

--
Note: email address new as of 9/4/2006
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Ramy wrote:
No Quebec Tango, this wasn't the point. The point is that Doug claims
that the sunset rule was not arbitrarily enforced, but the quotes he
provided do not mention any particular FAR. So my question remains:
When exactly was it decided which FAR to enforce and which not, and
when/where was it communicated?

Could we stop using phrases like "enforce the FARs"? Doug
isn't/can't/won't enforce FARs; these are contest rules he is enforcing.
And it should be clear by now that the FARs that concern the SSA are
those that can be checked by looking at the flight file.

I agree that there wasn't much communication about following the FARs,
but I wouldn't have thought much was needed, either. I seem to be wrong.

--
Note: email address new as of 9/4/2006
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Eric Greenwell wrote:
Ramy wrote:
Well, SeeYou shows the sunset time, so I guess this is what Doug is
using.
Paul, your suggetion will work for short to medium or yoyo tasks when
one can plan to land way before sunset or can abort the task. But this
does not work for long O&R and triangle tasks, especially in the great
basin, where weaker conditions on course can slow you down
significantly. When this happens there are only two choices, to fly
back home and potentially land after sunset, or landout in the middle
of nowhere before sunset, hope you don't break anything, then spend a
freezing night in the cockpit waiting for your retrieve.

We'd all choose to fly home, but we don't have to post that flight on
the OLC. Doug isn't suggesting you do something stupid to get some OLC
points, but he is asking you don't post flights that clearly go beyond
sunset.

Just one thing, it's not just me asking. When I got drafted for the
SSA-OLC Committee assignment earlier this year, this was all a done
deal. I had no part in making it at the SSA level. And I had no part in
making it at the field level either, because I have been landing (just)
before sunset even before the OLC existed.