Feds Want to Equipe Gliders With Transponders and Radios

At my club, we have 5 older generation, non-glass gliders. The rest
of our fleet, club and private, totals perhaps 12 glass ships - all
with electrical systems (and one with a transponder).


IMHO, in FAA speak, an aircraft having only battery power does not have
an electrical system.

FAR 91.215:

(3) Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) of this section, any aircraft which
was not originally certificated with an *engine-driven* electrical
system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system
installed, balloon or glider may conduct operations in the airspace
within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1
of this part provided such operations are conducted—.......

Tony V.

Michael Ash wrote:
In rec.aviation.soaring Alan wrote:
In article "Morgans" writes:
"Peter Dohm" wrote

I 'm confident that the installation is the biggest part of it--especially
when you include enough solar panels to power it all reliably.
Why solar cells? A 7 amp hour lead acid gel cell can be had for about 20 bucks,
and would run a solid state transponder for a whole flight.
One doesn't want to run the lead acid battery down past about 1/2 its capacity
to get a reasonable service life from it, so that limits you to 3.5 AH.

What kind of unreasonable service life do you get if you use the full
capacity, and at $20 each do you care if you use it up faster? Unless you
can count the number of cycles on your fingers that may be the simplest
and most cost effective way to go, although of course I may be overlooking
something important.

According to the Powersonic Technical Manual, you can get about 200
cycles using 100% discharges, and about 500 cycles using 50% discharges,
before the battery is down to 60% of it's capacity. If you need 80% of
the battery capacity, the cycle numbers are about 150 and 400,
respectively. 150 cycles is 3 years or more for most pilots - not bad
for $20.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

On Apr 30, 7:41*pm, Tony Verhulst wrote:
At my club, we have 5 older generation, non-glass gliders. *The rest
of our fleet, club and private, totals perhaps 12 glass ships - all
with electrical systems (and one with a transponder).

IMHO, in FAA speak, an aircraft having only battery power does not have
an electrical system.

FAR 91.215:

snipped

Tony V.


No argument - but that is the regulatory definition. My comment on
gliders with electrical systems addressed a possible misconception
about how many gliders have a battery- powered electrical system
capable of running radios, nav gear, and even transponders.

Apples and Oranges, so to speak...

Cheers,

Kirk

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

If this is implemented, will it affect powered aircraft without
electrical systems too?


It shouldn't.



How much does the gliders right-of-way over powered aircraft affect
this issue?


It doesn't affect it at all.



Is ATC going to take legal and financial responsibility for separation
if gliders are mandated to be so equipped and operated?


No.

"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
...

The spirit of the original transponder exemption was to allow for
older airplanes that were manufactured before the days electrical
avionics became commonplace. So I can see the justification for this
proposal. However, a full blown mode C transponder may not be
necessary. A radar reflector like they use on weather balloon ought be
sufficient. It is just a piece of foil with a large cross section.


And might present a small target or none at all on an ATC display using
ARSR. That assumes the ARSR has primary radar to begin with, some are just
beacon interrogators.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

However, a full blown mode C transponder may not be necessary.
A radar reflector like they use on weather balloon ought be
sufficient. It is just a piece of foil with a large cross section.


That's a constructive suggestion.

How large must such a radar reflector be?

Will it activate TCAS?


No.



Does ATC normally enable the display of primary targets?


Outside of Class A airspace, yes.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

I agree. But rescinding the glider exemption from FARs requiring
transponder use won't address that issue with powered aircraft that
lack an electrical system either. It looks like the FAA's response to
this NTSB recommendation is destined to be a compromise at best.
Hopefully it won't result in all gliders and aircraft without
electrical systems being grounded until they have transponders
installed and signed off.


So just remove the exemption at and above 10,000 MSL.

"WingFlaps" wrote in message
...

How slow does a target need to be to be undisplayed -typically? I
would have thought that even a glider is fast (45 knots) compared to
usual clutter.


There are two windmill farms about twenty miles northeast of Green Bay that
break through the Moving Target Indicator. The windmills are stationary, of
course, but the moving rotors are detected.

"kirk.stant" wrote in message
...

Once again - This has already been tested. ATC radars do not have
any trouble detecting gliders of any kind as primary targets IF THEY
ARE NOT FILTERED OUT. When reflectors were added, no difference was
noticed by ATC. And from personal experience in G-102s, LS-4s, and
LS-6s, I have never had any problem being picked up by a terminal
radar when I told them where I was.


Not all ATC radars are the same. ASR displays primary targets rather well,
ARSR not very well at all. Some enroute radar sites are just beacon
interrogators, no primary radar at all.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

While the NTSB Safety Recommendation Letter dated March 31, 2008 seems
to be a request for the FAA to remove the glider exemption from the
regulation(s) regarding mandatory transponder operation, it does also
mention aircraft manufactured/certified without electrical systems.

One wonders why the NTSB would only "close the door" half way on this
issue.


Perhaps it is because the NTSB recognizes that aircraft
manufactured/certified without electrical systems are not operated in the
same manner as gliders and are thus not an issue.