SGT. GREIGO'S FLAK JACKET

Gord wrote and asked:

Well, let's put it this way, as Judge Judy says "You lie to me
once and I'll doubt every word you say after that".

Both Brooks and George Z caught Art lying. No doubt about it.

What's your take on that?. I know what mine is.

Same as yours and a bunch of the long term lurkers around here.

Oxmoron1
MFE

I've seen several references to troops in Vietnam (and probably other
places) sitting on their
helmets

Not a very comfortable seat!

What I saw was helicopter pilots siitting on their flak jackets.

On the rare occasions that they were 1) provided and 2) we felt they were
required, the crewmen sat on them, no exceptions. Once we got into the doorways
and started our approach to the area where we intended to be more "danger" than
"in danger", we slipped them on the proper way. When you are wearing a plastic
helmet, a lot of the allure of a flak vest fades away...

v/r
Gordon
PS, my experiences in this regard are very limited, but I thought I could share
what I saw directly.
====(A+C====
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

Ed Rasimus wrote:
Morality is within the holder, and therefore while it might be wrong
can seldom be phoney.


Why, Ed!

Are you implying that morality is relative?

;-)


Jeff

ubject: SGT. GREIGO'S FLAK JACKET
From: (John S. Shinal)
Date: 3/3/04 6:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote:

No balls at all. At least not as much as you had when you flew all your
missions.. Tell us about it

More to the point, they allowed Griego to keep *his* balls by
using his flak jacket in a clever manner.

John Comer's B-17 memoirs (engineer/top turret gunner)
recounts their navigator having the equipment shop stitch up
protective armor for his crotch that laced elaborately over his normal
flight gear.

One day they were assigned several new crewmembers, who
arrived at the flight line jittery and gray-faced with worry. The
navigator launched into an elaborate tirade about the Nazi Flak
gunners trying to shoot him in the crotch, and how he wasn't going to
let them, etc - insisting the new guys help him lace up the crotch
armor while cussing the Flak gunners and every other German he could
think of.

The crew loosened up and flew a fairly tough mission where
they performed very well.

Sometimes a little improvisation with the body armor is just
the ticket. There are plenty of first-person accounts of Huey crews in
Vietnam who had Flak jackets on their floors; Cobra pilots, too (hard
to imagine in that tight space, but...)



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There is a term in the English language that describes that action. It is
called covering your ass. (grin)


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"Krztalizer" wrote in message
...
I've seen several references to troops in Vietnam (and probably other
places) sitting on their
helmets

Not a very comfortable seat!

What I saw was helicopter pilots siitting on their flak jackets.

On the rare occasions that they were 1) provided and 2) we felt they were
required, the crewmen sat on them, no exceptions. Once we got into the
doorways
and started our approach to the area where we intended to be more "danger"
than
"in danger", we slipped them on the proper way. When you are wearing a
plastic
helmet, a lot of the allure of a flak vest fades away...

Don't know how the rest of his crew used their flak jackets, but I know
sitting on it was not really an option for my brother when he was in the
cockpit of his Dustoff UH-1D/H in Vietnam. What he *did* do, at least
sometime during his tour, was position his trusty S&W .38 special revolver
(which he prefered to the .45, for reasons soon to be obvious) in its
holster between his legs, both to keep it from hindering his operation of
the cyclic and to give some (at least psychological) protection for his most
favorite personal area...

(The lack of stopping power in the .38 was not of great concern, since his
entire crew also carried other small arms besides their pistols; a veritable
arms bazaar apparently supplied their needs, as at one time or another
during his one-year tour he himself carried a M3 greasegun, a 12 ga. pump
shotgun, and his favorite, the old CAR-15, forerunner of today's M-4
carbine).

Brooks


v/r
Gordon
PS, my experiences in this regard are very limited, but I thought I could
share
what I saw directly.
====(A+C====
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos
to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

"Tarver Engineering" wrote:


"Gord Beaman" wrote in message
.. .
(OXMORON1) wrote:

Gord wrote:
Haven't figured this out by now?...hell, it never happened, it's
a 'story' (sound familiar?). Art just thought it'd make a cute
little story that a few might believe that's all.

Are you telling us that Art is telling "There I was" stories? "Flat on my
back
at 10,000 feet while trying to dive bomb the..."?

Rick

Well, let's put it this way, as Judge Judy says "You lie to me
once and I'll doubt every word you say after that".

Both Brooks and George Z caught Art lying. No doubt about it.

What's your take on that?. I know what mine is.

Doesn't Art claiming to be telling stories create a sort of disclaimer?

I don't think so John, he's always berating everyone for having
no wartime experience and he's talking about his crewmembers
here, even using their names. I think he meant for us to believe
these stories.

As to the 'volunteer' business, he's always knocking people for
not 'volunteering like he did' then he let it slip that his call
up noticed arrived on his 18th birthday.

Brooks and George took him to task and suggested that he had
gotten the Army call up then immediately beetled off and signed
up for a flying job. Which he probably did. But he won't admit
it.

Art's milking this for all it's worth thinking that it'll gain
him hits on his web site (that's why he's 'un-filtered' Brooks)
--

-Gord.

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 13:02:13 -0700, "Jeff Crowell"
wrote:

Ed Rasimus wrote:
Morality is within the holder, and therefore while it might be wrong
can seldom be phoney.


Why, Ed!

Are you implying that morality is relative?

;-)


Jeff

Certainly there are enough variations in moral judgement among any
group of individuals to suggest that is absolutely relative. I've got
a couple of moral relatives, but never met a moral absolute.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

I've thought about this since Art posted it, and guys have been popping him for
not correcting Griego's behavior. Flying is full of superstitious people and
we had our share - some folks always wore the same gross/filthy/threadbare
flightdeck jerseys when they flew, others tied their boots a particular way or
refused to ever wear new equipment on a flight, etc. My inflight indescretion
was to unstrap 90% of the time - our radar station seat was positioned in a way
that even a mild impact would cleave off my legs because even at full retract,
I was too tall to get out from under the rack. Periodically, pilots would see
me digging around in back and ask or demand that I put on at least the
hurricane strap - while still "illegal", it would at least keep a large portion
of my body within the confines of a wreck, were it to happen. I would sullenly
strap in and wait for the GUF to turn back around and then :::clunk::: I'd drop
it back onto the floor. Most pilots I flew with would "order" me to strap in,
but understood I had my own reasons for not doing so; we got into one short
argument (that I won, btw) and other than that, they felt they were doing their
jobs by telling me to do it, whether I did or not. I never had a problem with
the pilots in this regard, primarily because I obeyed the other 99.99% of their
orders/suggestions - and I did a great job.

I didn't come up with that 'unstrap' idea on my own - we had a crusty old AW1
NATOPS Evaluator in my shop when I first arrived in H-2s and he wore a nasty
scar across his forehead - from not wearing his straps and impacting the radar
with a fair amount of force. As he was one of my initial instructors, I
listened to every point he wanted to make about my new ride - the H-2 had such
a horrible reputation among crews (and the Navy in general), that any extra bit
of help was something I thought could bale me out when the little red
"Extremis" light came on. I saw photos of his accident and if he had been
strapped in upon impact, that dude would be dead, no question. So, I got to
thinking about how much I liked running and swimming on my only pair of legs
and I decided I would follow every other order, but not -that- one.

When the drivers occasionally got stupid (115 knots at 20' above the sea), I
made it a point to climb up and gingerly sit on the radio panel between the
pilots - that got LCDR F____ into a tizzyfit, but I stood my ground and said
something to the effect, "If you're going to kill me doing something this
dangerous, I at least want to see it coming." After a few zingers back and
forth, he slowly brought us up out of the ocean spray and slowed down to a more
sane speed - at which point I went back and turned the radar back on: its not
like I could see anything on the scope when the nose was 45-degrees down and we
were screaming along within the wave troughs. Radar horizon was about as far
as the blade tips in that flight attitude anyway!

I think when your job is inherently dangerous, beyond the 'normal danger' of
flight, some decisions are more personal and the pilots/Ohs were human enough
to understand, if not agree. I think that is the situation for the officers
and the tailgunner on "Willie The Wolf".

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

(The lack of stopping power in the .38 was not of great concern,

..38 revolver = signalling device and last ditch suicide tool

since his
entire crew also carried other small arms besides their pistols; a veritable
arms bazaar apparently supplied their needs,

Heh. That accurately describes exactly what it was like. Our 14-man aircrew
shop was better armed than most SWAT teams; at various times I flew with my UZI
(still have it) or a .45 (still have it). Worst mistake I made was selling my
M-1a Carbine with underfolding MP-40 buttstock, but my girlfriend thought that
*one* assault rifle was enough, and the price for .30 cal rounds was killing
me. By the standards of our shop, I was practically unarmed LOL Magic had a
frickin' cannon - .44 Mag, for what, we never knew; Danny preferred an
autoloader SPAS; etc., etc. point being that no one considered the issued .38
to be anything other than a suicide weapon.

as at one time or another
during his one-year tour he himself carried a M3 greasegun, a 12 ga. pump
shotgun, and his favorite, the old CAR-15, forerunner of today's M-4
carbine).

Yep -sounds about right.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

"Gord Beaman" wrote in message
news
"Tarver Engineering" wrote:


"Gord Beaman" wrote in message
.. .
(OXMORON1) wrote:

Gord wrote:
Haven't figured this out by now?...hell, it never happened, it's
a 'story' (sound familiar?). Art just thought it'd make a cute
little story that a few might believe that's all.

Are you telling us that Art is telling "There I was" stories? "Flat on
my
back
at 10,000 feet while trying to dive bomb the..."?

Rick

Well, let's put it this way, as Judge Judy says "You lie to me
once and I'll doubt every word you say after that".

Both Brooks and George Z caught Art lying. No doubt about it.

What's your take on that?. I know what mine is.

Doesn't Art claiming to be telling stories create a sort of disclaimer?

I don't think so John, he's always berating everyone for having
no wartime experience and he's talking about his crewmembers
here, even using their names. I think he meant for us to believe
these stories.

As to the 'volunteer' business, he's always knocking people for
not 'volunteering like he did' then he let it slip that his call
up noticed arrived on his 18th birthday.

Brooks and George took him to task and suggested that he had
gotten the Army call up then immediately beetled off and signed
up for a flying job. Which he probably did. But he won't admit
it.

Art's milking this for all it's worth thinking that it'll gain
him hits on his web site (that's why he's 'un-filtered' Brooks)

Acording to Art, it is working.