FAA Accuses British Airways of Recklessness

Limey wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...
Finally note that British Airways is not a US carrier and not even
required to
follow 14 CFR 121.

Untrue.
121.1
This part prescribes rules governing--
...
(f) Each person who is an applicant for an Air Carrier Certificate or=

an Operating Certificate under part 119 of this chapter, when
conducting proving tests.

119.1(a) This part applies to each person operating or intending to
operate civil aircraft -
(1) As an air carrier or commercial operator, or both, in air
commerce;

So if they want to operate as an air carrier in the U.S. then for the=

portion of their flight in U.S. territory they are indeed subject to =
14
CFR 121.

You're both wrong.. Part 119 and Part 121 specifically deal with Air
Carriers with an Operating Certificate issued by the FAA (US registered=

aircraft). Since the BA fleet, as far as I'm aware are all UK registere=
d
aircraft, operated out of the UK, then ICAO regulations or ANO's apply,=

whatever. They *probably* (I don't know) contain something like this, w=
hich
incidentally is applicable to US registered aircraft operating under a=
n FAA
issued certificate.

=A7 121.11 Rules applicable to operations in a foreign country.
Each certificate holder shall, while operating an airplane within a for=
eign
country, comply with the air traffic rules of the country concerned and=
the
local airport rules, except where any rule of this part is more restric=
tive
and may be followed without violating the rules of that country.

which, as best I can tell, means they need to comply with Part 91, and
applicable Part 121 rules while in US airspace.

Incorret. 14 CFR 121.11 refers to USA carriers certificated to fly under=
14 CFR
121 operating in foreign (non-USA) territories or countries. Like any ot=
her
non-USA carrier certified to fly in the USA, British Airways operates und=
er part
129 while in the USA.

Thialfi
:

In article
Sam Whitman wrote:

Thialfi wrote:

In article
Sam Whitman wrote:

Read it again, especially pargraph (b). Then read 121.627.
Continuing flight for several thousand miles and an ocean
with a
catastrophic engine failure may seem reasonable to you, but
the
NTSB has repeatedly ruled that it's not safe to THEM.
And they get to make that decision; you don't.

NTSB won't be making any decisions regarding this.

That's true - British Airways will be offered a chance to pay a
civil penalty in lieu of revocation of their certificate.

They'll pay it.

So a US scheduled carrier would explicitly (under
FAA's own regs) to do so.

Case law proves you wromg.

Please reread what I wrote. I didn't say anything about case
law.

That's why you've missed the point.
The issue is "careless or reckless", a rule that does apply to
foreign carriers.
And the NTSB has repeatedly ruled that a failure to land at the
nearest suitable airport in case of engine failure is careless
and reckless.

Finally note that British Airways is not a US carrier and
not
even required to follow 14 CFR 121.

It's required to follow Part 91.
See 91.13.

British Airways needs a Part 129 certificate to operate in US
airspace.
The FAA has every right to revoke British Airways' Part 129
certificate for this flight.

Which has nothing to do with 14 CFR 121.

...but has everything to do with part 91.
Which is what the original article said the FAA plans to charge
British Airways with.
Only Part 91 contains the phrase "careless or reckless".


and they'll fail, because it's meant as a catch-all to cover unforseen
circumstances. Since they clearly laid out the circumstances as they
occured, they haven't a leg to stand on.

Besides, since BA is still basically the British flag carrier, as long as
Tony is Shrub's lap dog, well..


Bertie

Sam Whitman :

wrote:

Finally note that British Airways is not a US carrier and not even
required to
follow 14 CFR 121.

Untrue.
121.1
This part prescribes rules governing--
...
(f) Each person who is an applicant for an Air Carrier Certificate or
an Operating Certificate under part 119 of this chapter, when
conducting proving tests.

British Airways is no such applicant, nor is any other foreign flagged
carrier.

119.1(a) This part applies to each person operating or intending to
operate civil aircraft -
(1) As an air carrier or commercial operator, or both, in air
commerce;

It's nice to be able to quote selected portions of the CFR. It's more
important to have a clue what you are quoting. Before claiming that part
119 refers to foreign flagged airlines operating in the USA, you might be
interested in reading part 119. See 14 CFR 119.1 (d)

So if they want to operate as an air carrier in the U.S. then for the
portion of their flight in U.S. territory they are indeed subject to 14
CFR 121.

Absolutely False.

No, it isn't. No more than say, A US aircraft operating into France would
be exempt from their air navigation orders which have higher Cat 3b
limitations than 121.

Bertie



Bertie

Thialfi wrote:

In article
Sam Whitman wrote:

Thialfi wrote:

In article
Sam Whitman wrote:

Read it again, especially pargraph (b). Then read 121.627.
Continuing flight for several thousand miles and an ocean
with a
catastrophic engine failure may seem reasonable to you, but
the
NTSB has repeatedly ruled that it's not safe to THEM.
And they get to make that decision; you don't.

NTSB won't be making any decisions regarding this.

That's true - British Airways will be offered a chance to pay a
civil penalty in lieu of revocation of their certificate.

They'll pay it.

So a US scheduled carrier would explicitly (under
FAA's own regs) to do so.

Case law proves you wromg.

Please reread what I wrote. I didn't say anything about case
law.

That's why you've missed the point.
The issue is "careless or reckless", a rule that does apply to
foreign carriers.

Actually I wrote about that issue to. Please reread the post for
details.


And the NTSB has repeatedly ruled that a failure to land at the
nearest suitable airport in case of engine failure is careless
and reckless.

Which cases are you specifically referring to?



Finally note that British Airways is not a US carrier and
not
even required to follow 14 CFR 121.

It's required to follow Part 91.
See 91.13.

Many operations are required to comply with part 91.




British Airways needs a Part 129 certificate to operate in US
airspace.
The FAA has every right to revoke British Airways' Part 129
certificate for this flight.

Which has nothing to do with 14 CFR 121.

...but has everything to do with part 91.
Which is what the original article said the FAA plans to charge
British Airways with.
Only Part 91 contains the phrase "careless or reckless".

If FAA decides to follow through with more than press releases and
grandstanding as they threaten, they face an uphill legal battle in view
of treaties USA has signed. If they decide to fine or ban British
Airways for *following procedures in its own manual* then the USA
shouldn't be surprised shortly afterward when one or more US flagged
airlines is banned from British airspace.

Sam Whitman :

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Sam Whitman
:

wrote:

Finally note that British Airways is not a US carrier and not
even
required to
follow 14 CFR 121.

Untrue.
121.1
This part prescribes rules governing--
...
(f) Each person who is an applicant for an Air Carrier Certificate
or an Operating Certificate under part 119 of this chapter, when
conducting proving tests.

British Airways is no such applicant, nor is any other foreign
flagged carrier.

119.1(a) This part applies to each person operating or intending
to operate civil aircraft -
(1) As an air carrier or commercial operator, or both, in air
commerce;

It's nice to be able to quote selected portions of the CFR. It's
more important to have a clue what you are quoting. Before
claiming that part 119 refers to foreign flagged airlines operating
in the USA, you might be interested in reading part 119. See 14
CFR 119.1 (d)

So if they want to operate as an air carrier in the U.S. then for
the portion of their flight in U.S. territory they are indeed
subject to 14 CFR 121.

Absolutely False.

No, it isn't. No more than say, A US aircraft operating into France
would be exempt from their air navigation orders which have higher
Cat 3b limitations than 121.

Two distinctly separate situations which are not comparable. Part 121
applies to US flagged airlines only. To put it another way, part 121
does not apply to foreign flagged (non-USA) airlines. See 14 CFR
121.1


OK, that's true enough.

A US aircraft operating in France would be subject to all French
regulations which pertain to foreign flagged (non-French) airlines.
However treaties in ICAO countries limit the authority of all such
regulations.


also so, but he's still not going to get nailed.BA can use 121 to show a
double standard is being used by the FAA if it were to go to court, which,
of course, it will not.


Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Sam Whitman :

wrote:

Finally note that British Airways is not a US carrier and not even
required to
follow 14 CFR 121.

Untrue.
121.1
This part prescribes rules governing--
...
(f) Each person who is an applicant for an Air Carrier Certificate or
an Operating Certificate under part 119 of this chapter, when
conducting proving tests.

British Airways is no such applicant, nor is any other foreign flagged
carrier.

119.1(a) This part applies to each person operating or intending to
operate civil aircraft -
(1) As an air carrier or commercial operator, or both, in air
commerce;

It's nice to be able to quote selected portions of the CFR. It's more
important to have a clue what you are quoting. Before claiming that part
119 refers to foreign flagged airlines operating in the USA, you might be
interested in reading part 119. See 14 CFR 119.1 (d)

So if they want to operate as an air carrier in the U.S. then for the
portion of their flight in U.S. territory they are indeed subject to 14
CFR 121.

Absolutely False.

No, it isn't. No more than say, A US aircraft operating into France would
be exempt from their air navigation orders which have higher Cat 3b
limitations than 121.

Two distinctly separate situations which are not comparable. Part 121 applies
to US flagged airlines only. To put it another way, part 121 does not apply to
foreign flagged (non-USA) airlines. See 14 CFR 121.1

A US aircraft operating in France would be subject to all French regulations
which pertain to foreign flagged (non-French) airlines. However treaties in
ICAO countries limit the authority of all such regulations.

"Sam Whitman" wrote in message
...
Limey wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...
Finally note that British Airways is not a US carrier and not even
required to
follow 14 CFR 121.

Untrue.
121.1
This part prescribes rules governing--
...
(f) Each person who is an applicant for an Air Carrier Certificate or
an Operating Certificate under part 119 of this chapter, when
conducting proving tests.

119.1(a) This part applies to each person operating or intending to
operate civil aircraft -
(1) As an air carrier or commercial operator, or both, in air
commerce;

So if they want to operate as an air carrier in the U.S. then for the
portion of their flight in U.S. territory they are indeed subject to 14
CFR 121.

You're both wrong.. Part 119 and Part 121 specifically deal with Air
Carriers with an Operating Certificate issued by the FAA (US registered
aircraft). Since the BA fleet, as far as I'm aware are all UK registered
aircraft, operated out of the UK, then ICAO regulations or ANO's apply,
whatever. They *probably* (I don't know) contain something like this,
which
incidentally is applicable to US registered aircraft operating under an
FAA
issued certificate.

§ 121.11 Rules applicable to operations in a foreign country.
Each certificate holder shall, while operating an airplane within a
foreign
country, comply with the air traffic rules of the country concerned and
the
local airport rules, except where any rule of this part is more
restrictive
and may be followed without violating the rules of that country.

which, as best I can tell, means they need to comply with Part 91, and
applicable Part 121 rules while in US airspace.

Incorret. 14 CFR 121.11 refers to USA carriers certificated to fly under
14 CFR
121 operating in foreign (non-USA) territories or countries.

OK, I just assumed that there may be some relevance being that the more
restrictive 121 rules might apply, but that is prolly covered under 129,
with which I am not at all familiar. Thx for the clarification.


Like any other
non-USA carrier certified to fly in the USA, British Airways operates
under part
129 while in the USA.

Yup.

Cheers, Limey.

Limey wrote:

"Sam Whitman" wrote in message
...
Limey wrote:


§ 121.11 Rules applicable to operations in a foreign country.
Each certificate holder shall, while operating an airplane within a
foreign
country, comply with the air traffic rules of the country concerned and
the
local airport rules, except where any rule of this part is more
restrictive
and may be followed without violating the rules of that country.

which, as best I can tell, means they need to comply with Part 91, and
applicable Part 121 rules while in US airspace.

Incorret. 14 CFR 121.11 refers to USA carriers certificated to fly under
14 CFR
121 operating in foreign (non-USA) territories or countries.

OK, I just assumed that there may be some relevance being that the more
restrictive 121 rules might apply, but that is prolly covered under 129,
with which I am not at all familiar. Thx for the clarification.

Like any other
non-USA carrier certified to fly in the USA, British Airways operates
under part
129 while in the USA.

Intruiged that you pilots seem to find room for disagreement over which FARs
apply.

Part 129 .Operations: Foreign air carriers and foreign operators of
U.S.-registered aircraft engaged in common carriage. Section 19 - Air traffic
rules and procedures

(a) Each pilot must be familiar with the applicable rules, the navigational and
communications facilities, and the air traffic control and other procedures, of
the areas to be traversed by him within the United States.

(b) Each foreign air carrier shall establish procedures to assure that each of
its pilots has the knowledge required by paragraph (a) of this section and
shall check the ability of each of its pilots to operate safely according to
applicable rules and procedures.

* (c) Each foreign air carrier shall conform to the practices, procedures, and
other requirements prescribed by the Administrator for U.S. air carriers for
the areas to be operated in. *

129.19(c) appears to infer that foreign carriers have to comply with Part 121
whilst in US airspace.


Graham

Pooh Bear
:



Limey wrote:

"Sam Whitman" wrote in message
...
Limey wrote:


§ 121.11 Rules applicable to operations in a foreign country.
Each certificate holder shall, while operating an airplane within a
foreign
country, comply with the air traffic rules of the country concerned
and the
local airport rules, except where any rule of this part is more
restrictive
and may be followed without violating the rules of that country.

which, as best I can tell, means they need to comply with Part 91,
and applicable Part 121 rules while in US airspace.

Incorret. 14 CFR 121.11 refers to USA carriers certificated to fly
under 14 CFR
121 operating in foreign (non-USA) territories or countries.

OK, I just assumed that there may be some relevance being that the
more restrictive 121 rules might apply, but that is prolly covered
under 129, with which I am not at all familiar. Thx for the
clarification.

Like any other
non-USA carrier certified to fly in the USA, British Airways
operates under part
129 while in the USA.

Intruiged that you pilots seem to find room for disagreement over
which FARs apply.

Yeah, right, planespotter.

Like it would matter to you.

Fjukwit.

Bertie

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...


Limey wrote:

"Sam Whitman" wrote in message
...
Limey wrote:


§ 121.11 Rules applicable to operations in a foreign country.
Each certificate holder shall, while operating an airplane within a
foreign
country, comply with the air traffic rules of the country concerned and
the
local airport rules, except where any rule of this part is more
restrictive
and may be followed without violating the rules of that country.

which, as best I can tell, means they need to comply with Part 91, and
applicable Part 121 rules while in US airspace.

Incorret. 14 CFR 121.11 refers to USA carriers certificated to fly
under
14 CFR
121 operating in foreign (non-USA) territories or countries.

OK, I just assumed that there may be some relevance being that the more
restrictive 121 rules might apply, but that is prolly covered under 129,
with which I am not at all familiar. Thx for the clarification.

Like any other
non-USA carrier certified to fly in the USA, British Airways operates
under part
129 while in the USA.

Intruiged that you pilots seem to find room for disagreement over which
FARs
apply.

Part 129 .Operations: Foreign air carriers and foreign operators of
U.S.-registered aircraft engaged in common carriage. Section 19 - Air
traffic
rules and procedures

(a) Each pilot must be familiar with the applicable rules, the
navigational and
communications facilities, and the air traffic control and other
procedures, of
the areas to be traversed by him within the United States.

(b) Each foreign air carrier shall establish procedures to assure that
each of
its pilots has the knowledge required by paragraph (a) of this section and
shall check the ability of each of its pilots to operate safely according
to
applicable rules and procedures.

* (c) Each foreign air carrier shall conform to the practices, procedures,
and
other requirements prescribed by the Administrator for U.S. air carriers
for
the areas to be operated in. *

129.19(c) appears to infer that foreign carriers have to comply with Part
121
whilst in US airspace.


Kind of what I thought but didn't look into properly. Better that you do it,
seeing that you have more time on yer hands.
Either way, if you're implying that "you pilots" ought to know all the regs,
that's ridiculous. We're only required to be familiar with the ones that
apply to the particular type of flying we're doing, which makes my job easy.

Limey.