Can Branson Charge For Flights In An Experimental Aircraft?

On Jan 28, 12:04 pm, Larry Dighera wrote:
Is Branson going to certify White Knight Two and SpaceShipTwo?

I believe the FAA has issued rules allowing private suborbital
spacecraft to carry paying passengers using a launch license rules
rather than aircraft certification. Essentially, launch licenses only
require the operator to certify that the uninvolved public will not be
unduly put in danger by the flight- they do *not* require the operator
to prove that the passengers will not be endangered. I believe
there's a requirement that the pax sign releases saying that they
understand the terms under which the flight is being conducted, but I
could be wrong.

There was actually a fairly big argument in the nascent suborbital
passenger community a few years ago as to whether suborbital
operations should be covered under certification or launch licenses.
Burt Rutan (designer of the WK/SS1 system) actually wanted to
implement something akin to certification, arguing that the new
industry had to be safe for passengers or it would never get off the
ground. Most other would-be suborbital operators disagreed, arguing
that there was not enough data currently available on suborbital ops
to even define what certification standards should be in that regime,
let alone determine whether or not their vehicles met those standards,
and that if they were required to certify their vehicles it would
effectively strange the industry in its cradle by delaying revenue-
producing flights for too long. The launch license guys have won out
for the moment, although I believe there's a Congressman who keeps
trying to legislatively change the rules.

-JTD

On 28 Jan, 18:25, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Larry Dighera wrote :



Is Branson going to certify White Knight Two and SpaceShipTwo?

You are dead inside, Larry.

Dead

Bertie

Pure class!

You are of course a right Royal Pain in the Ass.

But worth it:-)

wrote in
:

On 28 Jan, 18:25, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Larry Dighera wrote
:



Is Branson going to certify White Knight Two and SpaceShipTwo?

You are dead inside, Larry.

Dead

Bertie

Pure class!

You are of course a right Royal Pain in the Ass.

But worth it:-)




I wouldn't have it any other way.


Bertie

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 17:04:14 GMT, Larry Dighera
wrote:


Is Branson going to certify White Knight Two and SpaceShipTwo?

Shareholders?



http://www.heraldtribune.com/article...0838/-1/HELP07
NEW YORK -- A select group of rich tourists may be blasting into
space within a few years in a craft that developers say is
about 70 percent complete.

British billionaire Richard Branson and the aerospace designer
Burt Rutan on Wednesday unveiled a model of SpaceShipTwo, the
vehicle they hope will be able to take passengers about 62 miles
above Earth for the fun of it, with test flights possibly
beginning this year. ...

About 200 prospective passengers from 30 countries have made
reservations, shelling out $200,000 each.

But:


http://www1.airweb.faa.gov/REGULATOR...6?OpenDocument
Part 91 GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES
Subpart D--Special Flight Operations

Sec. 91.319

Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating limitations.

(a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental
certificate--
(1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was
issued; or
-- (2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.
(b) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental
certificate outside of an area assigned by the Administrator until
it is shown that--
(1) The aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of
speeds and throughout all the maneuvers to be executed; and
(2) The aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics or
design features.
(c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special
operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has
an experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a
congested airway. The Administrator may issue special operating
limitations for particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and
landings to be conducted over a densely populated area or in a
congested airway, in accordance with terms and conditions
specified in the authorization in the interest of safety in air
commerce.
(d) Each person operating an aircraft that has an experimental
certificate shall--
(1) Advise each person carried of the experimental nature of the
aircraft;
(2) Operate under VFR, day only, unless otherwise specifically
authorized by the Administrator; and
(3) Notify the control tower of the experimental nature of the
aircraft when operating the aircraft into or out of airports with
operating control towers.
[(e) No person may operate an aircraft that is issued an
experimental certificate under §21.191 (i) of this chapter for
compensation or hire, except a person may operate an aircraft
issued an experimental certificate under §21.191 (i)(1) for
compensation or hire to-
(1) Tow a glider that is a light-sport aircraft or unpowered
ultralight vehicle in accordance with §91.309; or
(2) Conduct flight training in an aircraft which that person
provides prior to January 31, 2010.
(f) No person may lease an aircraft that is issued an experimental
certificate under §21.191 (i) of this chapter, except in
accordance with paragraph (e)(1) of this section.
(g) No person may operate an aircraft issued an experimental
certificate under §21.191 (i)(1) of this chapter to tow a glider
that is a light-sport aircraft or unpowered ultralight vehicle for
compensation or hire or to conduct flight training for
compensation or hire in an aircraft which that persons provides
unless within the preceding 100 hours of time in service the
aircraft has-
(1) Been inspected by a certificated repairman (light-sport
aircraft) with a maintenance rating, an appropriately rated
mechanic, or an appropriately rated repair station in accordance
with inspection procedures developed by the aircraft manufacturer
or a person acceptable to the FAA; or
(2) Received an inspection for the issuance of an airworthiness
certificate in accordance with part 21 of this chapter.
(h) The FAA may issue deviation authority providing relief from
the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section for the purpose of
conducting flight training. The FAA will issue this deviation
authority as a letter of deviation authority.
(1) The FAA may cancel or amend a letter of deviation authority at
any time.
(2) An applicant must submit a request for deviation authority to
the FAA at least 60 days before the date of intended operations. A
request for deviation authority must contain a complete
description of the proposed operation and justification that
establishes a level of safety equivalent to that provided under
the regulations for the deviation requested.
(i) The Administrator may prescribe additional limitations that
the Administrator considers necessary, including limitations on
the persons that may be carried in the aircraft.]



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

In article ,
Larry Dighera wrote:



But that doesn't address Sec. 91.319's prohibition against flying
paying passengers in experimental aircraft, does it?

You just have to get a letter authorizing the carrying of paying
passengers. The Collings Foundation B-24J is licensed in the
experimental category yet is allowed to carry paying passengers.

Dale wrote:
In article ,
Larry Dighera wrote:



But that doesn't address Sec. 91.319's prohibition against flying
paying passengers in experimental aircraft, does it?


You just have to get a letter authorizing the carrying of paying
passengers. The Collings Foundation B-24J is licensed in the
experimental category yet is allowed to carry paying passengers.


Passengers can pay for fuel and maintenance costs.

The rest goes for training.

On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:18:27 -0800, "Marc J. Zeitlin"
wrote in
:

Larry Dighera wrote:

So it would seem that the operator of an ostensibly uncertified
aircraft, that can truly be considered experimental in my opinion, is
authorized by the FAA to "verify" the spacecraft is safe for flight.

Yes, with a substantial amount of FAA/AST oversight and signoff of the
analysis/verification.

But that doesn't address Sec. 91.319's prohibition against flying
paying passengers in experimental aircraft, does it?

While the aircraft (mothership) is certificated in the experimental
R&D category, no paying passengers will be carried.

Once the Launch License is granted (after testing as Exp. R&D and
further testing with a Launch Permit) the paying passengers can be
carried ONLY WHILE ON A LAUNCH MISSION under the Launch License - NOT
under the Exp. R&D certificate.

I suppose the rational for this policy of somewhat lower standards for
spacecraft is due to the limited technical information available to
would be certifiers and their limited experience in this field, the
uniqueness of each vehicle, and the desirability to foster growth in
the fledgling, domestic space flight marketplace. Also, it would
appear that Sec. 91.319 is concerned with the safety of those over
whom experimental aircraft fly. Spacecraft operations obviate that
issue, as they are restricted to spaceports, IIUC.

Thank you for your input. Are you affiliated with the space flight
industry?

"Marc J. Zeitlin" wrote

I work for Scaled on the Spaceship/Mothership project, currently.

he says, modestly.

To be slightly more accurate, he is one of the top, key members of the team.

Anything he says about what goes on at Scaled, if coming right (almost) from
the horse's mouth. He knows of what he speaks.

I am thankful you stop in, occasionally. If I ever get a chance, I'll buy
you a beer or three. g
--
Jim in NC

On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:38:27 -0800, "Marc J. Zeitlin"
wrote in
:

Larry Dighera wrote:

... Are you affiliated with the space flight industry?

I work for Scaled on the Spaceship/Mothership project, currently.


So do the Commercial Space Transportation Regulations
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ast/regulations/
supercede the Part 91 regulations, or augment them?

Larry Dighera wrote in
:

On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:38:27 -0800, "Marc J. Zeitlin"
wrote in
:

Larry Dighera wrote:

... Are you affiliated with the space flight industry?

I work for Scaled on the Spaceship/Mothership project, currently.


So do the Commercial Space Transportation Regulations
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/.../ast/regulatio
ns/ supercede the Part 91 regulations, or augment them?



DEAD!

Bertie