VWs

It seems the pilots of Jodel D-18/19's and Menestrel HN-700
aircraft have overlooked the shortcomings of the VW and just made it
work for them. A French group of Menestrel pilots flew their aircraft
to a British fly in last year across the channel,and apparently all
made it.Maybe with the proper care and constraints the VW can be used
safely.

"Anyolmouse" wrote

Your post is the only one addressing the real problem with VW engines as
being oil temperature. As a test bed I had a '73 VW van 2000cc type IV
carbureted engine rebuilt using German jugs and new heads. Cylinder head
temperature and oil temperature sensors were installed and monitored. A
two hour drive with OAT in the 90's brought the oil temperature up to
250°F and a mandatory long wait for it to cool down. The Cylinder head
temperatures were around 325°F.

I'm not sure if you are saying that you agree, that keeping the oil cool is
the key, or that the oil stays cool enough.

In any case, an engine in an airplane is going to be running at much higher
sustained HP levels than an engine in a van, or car.

The oil will get hotter with the engine running hard, like in an airplane.
The comment about the air cooled engine being oil and air cooled is valid,
IMHO. The more oil you can move though the head, and the cooler the oil is,
the higher the HP can be without damaging elements in the heads. Still, the
head is going to limit how much power you run, no matter how cool you try to
keep it. The design just limits how much area is exposed to the air, and it
isn't enough.

Since the type IV has an oil filter I ordered a remote filter kit with
180°F bypass to a Cessna 150 flat plate oil cooler. The stock oil cooler
was left in place and the C-150 cooler was installed in the rear quarter
panel where air from the intake above would pass through the cooler. An
extra fan was not installed or needed.

Sounds good. I often saw VW vans, especially, but a few cars, with gigantic
air scoops, especially in the mountains. I wondered if they helped, but I
always managed to see more than a few VW's sitting beside the road, smoking.
I felt sorry for them, but at the time, I did not know all about the cooling
problems.

Several long 70 mph trips were made in western Kansas and eastern
Colorado during 106°F weather. The oil temperature never went above
210°F with this setup. The cylinder head temperatures stayed around
300°F except for the #3 cylinder which sometimes reached 325°. No doubt
due to the placement of the internal cooler.

At a time when most van owners were lucky to get 45K miles out of their
engines I had 89K on it when I sold the van to a teenager. He managed to
destroy the clutch twice and the transaxle once before he sold it and
moved off to college. The engine was still running strong.

I had a Corvair that I drove over 140 thousand miles, and sold it to a guy
that had a dozen or so Corvairs. He put the engine in a van, without
bothering to rebuild it, and it probably did not need it.

I got rid of it because the unibody had rusted to the point that the tops of
the front wheels were leaning in a couple inches. Ohio salt, and jumping
too many Northwestern Ohio rail grade crossings did it in, I guess. You
could get some serious air, with the balance of a Corvair! G

"Griff" wrote

It seems the pilots of Jodel D-18/19's and Menestrel HN-700
aircraft have overlooked the shortcomings of the VW and just made it
work for them. A French group of Menestrel pilots flew their aircraft
to a British fly in last year across the channel,and apparently all
made it.Maybe with the proper care and constraints the VW can be used
safely.
I don't think anyone is arguing that point. If you limit the sustained
power output to around 40 HP, and rebuild it occasionally, they are fine.
You have to have a design that is happy with that amount of power.

People just need to know that they will be disappointed, if they expect to
get 80 or more HP sustained from a stock head design VW. It just will not
run with that much heat going though it, at least not very long.
--
Jim in NC

"Morgans" wrote in message
...
|
| "Anyolmouse" wrote
|
| Your post is the only one addressing the real problem with VW
engines as
| being oil temperature. As a test bed I had a '73 VW van 2000cc type
IV
| carbureted engine rebuilt using German jugs and new heads. Cylinder
head
| temperature and oil temperature sensors were installed and
monitored. A
| two hour drive with OAT in the 90's brought the oil temperature up
to
| 250°F and a mandatory long wait for it to cool down. The Cylinder
head
| temperatures were around 325°F.

| I'm not sure if you are saying that you agree, that keeping the oil
cool is
| the key, or that the oil stays cool enough

Keeping the oil cool is what is important. It helps cool the rest.

| In any case, an engine in an airplane is going to be running at much
higher
| sustained HP levels than an engine in a van, or car.
|
| The oil will get hotter with the engine running hard, like in an
airplane.
| The comment about the air cooled engine being oil and air cooled is
valid,
| IMHO. The more oil you can move though the head, and the cooler the
oil is,
| the higher the HP can be without damaging elements in the heads.
Still, the
| head is going to limit how much power you run, no matter how cool you
try to
| keep it. The design just limits how much area is exposed to the air,
and it
| isn't enough.

I think a four or five hour trip in 106° temperatures running at 70 mph
except for slowing down for a few small towns is a pretty good test. The
van was geared such that 85 mph was tops in speed. BTW, the 210° oil
temp was observed when slowing down in these towns. Not while on the
open highway. While it is true that you will be running from 65% to 75%
power at cruise in an aircraft, you will also be at a lower OAT.

|
| Since the type IV has an oil filter I ordered a remote filter kit
with
| 180°F bypass to a Cessna 150 flat plate oil cooler. The stock oil
cooler
| was left in place and the C-150 cooler was installed in the rear
quarter
| panel where air from the intake above would pass through the cooler.
An
| extra fan was not installed or needed.
|
| Sounds good. I often saw VW vans, especially, but a few cars, with
gigantic
| air scoops, especially in the mountains. I wondered if they helped,
but I
| always managed to see more than a few VW's sitting beside the road,
smoking.
| I felt sorry for them, but at the time, I did not know all about the
cooling
| problems.

The irony is that more VW engines were toasted running with the wind
than into it. The #3 cylinder usually went first because of the oil
cooler location in front of it.

|
| Several long 70 mph trips were made in western Kansas and eastern
| Colorado during 106°F weather. The oil temperature never went above
| 210°F with this setup. The cylinder head temperatures stayed around
| 300°F except for the #3 cylinder which sometimes reached 325°. No
doubt
| due to the placement of the internal cooler.
|
| At a time when most van owners were lucky to get 45K miles out of
their
| engines I had 89K on it when I sold the van to a teenager. He
managed to
| destroy the clutch twice and the transaxle once before he sold it
and
| moved off to college. The engine was still running strong.
|
| I had a Corvair that I drove over 140 thousand miles, and sold it to a
guy
| that had a dozen or so Corvairs. He put the engine in a van, without
| bothering to rebuild it, and it probably did not need it.
|
| I got rid of it because the unibody had rusted to the point that the
tops of
| the front wheels were leaning in a couple inches. Ohio salt, and
jumping
| too many Northwestern Ohio rail grade crossings did it in, I guess.
You
| could get some serious air, with the balance of a Corvair! G
|

It would be nice to have the turbocharged coupe in mint condition Sigh

--
Anyolmouse

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Anyolmouse wrote:


I think a four or five hour trip in 106° temperatures running at 70 mph
except for slowing down for a few small towns is a pretty good test. The
van was geared such that 85 mph was tops in speed. BTW, the 210° oil
temp was observed when slowing down in these towns. Not while on the
open highway. While it is true that you will be running from 65% to 75%
power at cruise in an aircraft, you will also be at a lower OAT.


The engine in your bus does not have a lot in common with the VW engines
people are flying for the most part. You indicated that you had a "type
IV" -- VW's admission that they had taken the "Type II" to an
engineering dead end. The cylinder head on it has more in common with
the late model Corvair than the "Type II" Look at them both and
compare. The late model Corvair was a pretty good mill, with a few
basic mods like the oil pump. I built many of them back when people
were practically giving them away. I had a friend that even had a
Corvair engine in a helicopter -- though to be honest, I never saw it
fly.

Charles

Charles Vincent wrote:

I had a friend that even had a
Corvair engine in a helicopter -- though to be honest, I never saw it fly.

Charles

Now that I'd like to see.

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
Charles Vincent wrote:

I had a friend that even had a Corvair engine in a helicopter --
though to be honest, I never saw it fly.

Charles

Now that I'd like to see.

As I understand his was built under government contract. This is not
his, as I never took pictures but here are a couple corvair copters:

www.flycorvair.com/email031605.html

http://www.corvair.de/n2vzd/chelio1.jpg
http://www.corvair.de/n2vzd/chelio2.jpg
http://www.corvair.de/n2vzd/chelio3.jpg

Charles

On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 08:13:25 -0800 (PST), Griff
wrote:

It seems the pilots of Jodel D-18/19's and Menestrel HN-700
aircraft have overlooked the shortcomings of the VW and just made it
work for them. A French group of Menestrel pilots flew their aircraft
to a British fly in last year across the channel,and apparently all
made it.Maybe with the proper care and constraints the VW can be used
safely.

On a D9 it is a fantastic engine. Anything that will fly on 15-20HP
and take off on 40 or 50, you're gold.
Any slow draggy plane, or any 2 seater, and you are pushing it.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Charles Vincent wrote:
Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
Charles Vincent wrote:

I had a friend that even had a Corvair engine in a helicopter --
though to be honest, I never saw it fly.

Charles

Now that I'd like to see.

As I understand his was built under government contract. This is not
his, as I never took pictures but here are a couple corvair copters:

www.flycorvair.com/email031605.html

http://www.corvair.de/n2vzd/chelio1.jpg
http://www.corvair.de/n2vzd/chelio2.jpg
http://www.corvair.de/n2vzd/chelio3.jpg

Charles

I can't beleive that I never saw that on WW site. Seeing as he is
building my engine I thought I had read every page there.

Interesting that he makes no comment about using a Corvair in a
helicopter. It would be very unlike WW not to if he thought it was a bad
idea. I'll have to ask him about it next time we talk.

On Jan 30, 5:29*am, "Morgans" wrote:
wrote

I thought this was the first "shot"

"You would have to replace the jug and head to match the aero design.
And
then why? So that you could mate you're new heads to a cylinder block
that has been known to crack just sitting on a shelf waiting to be
installed?"

I didn't think that was offered in the spirit of answering an honest
question, but to be aggressive and insulting.

That is where we part ways, with the spirit of the answer.

That, to me, was an important answer concerning the problems of using the VW
engine, pointing out that there were not only problems with heat and the
head, but that the case was another added problem. *It was an honest attempt
to inform about yet another reason why the VW had problems. *Nothing
personal, to me.
--
Jim in NC

I hear you.

Sometimes usenet erupts into brawls, like in a bar when people get
drunk and talk too abrasively.

Anyway the overall trend of the thread is back where I hoped it would
go to begin with.