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#11
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Just push the blue button!
Bob Noel wrote:
Mike wrote: "Bob Noel" wrote: Mike wrote: Diamond already has this on some of their aircraft. I don't know that it has ever made a difference, however there are a large number of fatalities caused by VFR to IMC (just like John-John). John-John was VFR to IMC? Yep. hmmm, all the wx reports I saw were legal VMC (not smart VMC, but still legal). Do you have reference to reports that the conditions were not VMC? Conditions were reported at above VFR minimums. The FAA manager at the airport said that conditions were likely better than the official reports at the time of the accident. The NTSB report simply said that there can be illusions when flying over sparcely-populated areas or over water in hazy conditions. In this case, the loss of horizon: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...12X19354&key=1 |
#12
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Just push the blue button!
Tman,
That's IMC buddy. Show me the regs! Show me where it says in the regs that IMC is defined as "any weather in which only flight by reference to instruments is possible" or something to that effect. And good luck! The conditions may have been such that you could not maintain your flight attitude without reference to instruments - but that's got nothing to do with IMC. -- Thomas Borchert (EDDH) |
#13
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Just push the blue button!
"James Robinson" wrote in message
.. . Bob Noel wrote: Mike wrote: "Bob Noel" wrote: Mike wrote: Diamond already has this on some of their aircraft. I don't know that it has ever made a difference, however there are a large number of fatalities caused by VFR to IMC (just like John-John). John-John was VFR to IMC? Yep. hmmm, all the wx reports I saw were legal VMC (not smart VMC, but still legal). Do you have reference to reports that the conditions were not VMC? Conditions were reported at above VFR minimums. The FAA manager at the airport said that conditions were likely better than the official reports at the time of the accident. The NTSB report simply said that there can be illusions when flying over sparcely-populated areas or over water in hazy conditions. In this case, the loss of horizon: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...12X19354&key=1 He didn't crash at the airport. Also any conditions reported by automated wx stations only report conditions on the ground. Nantucket was reporting 4 miles visibility with mist in the area at the time. So even going by the ground stations, clearly there were conditions in the general area that were damn close to IMC. He didn't loose it near the ground either, he lost it at altitude and probably around 2-3,000'. One pilot reported visibilities as low as 2 miles in the area. Another flew over Martha's Vinyard and thought there was a power outage because he saw no lights. Most pilots in the area reported conditions much lower than was forcast. Furthermore no pilot operating under VFR is going to tell the NTSB they were in IMC. At the time of the accident, John-John was training to get his instrument ticket and he had flown in IMC with an instructor at night. Although he wasn't ready for his checkride, he also wasn't completely ignorant of IFR. Clearly he was a victim of spatial disorientation, which certainly can happen at night, but that particular night he had at least some moonlight. That's why I think he probably got into a bit of IMC and lost it before the crash. I think it would have taken more than just a bit of haze to trip him up. |
#14
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Just push the blue button!
On Sat, 04 Oct 2008 16:08:06 GMT, Mike wrote:
At the time of the accident, John-John was training to get his instrument ticket and he had flown in IMC with an instructor at night. Although he wasn't ready for his checkride, he also wasn't completely ignorant of IFR. Clearly he was a victim of spatial disorientation, which certainly can happen at night, but that particular night he had at least some moonlight. That's why I think he probably got into a bit of IMC and lost it before the crash. I think it would have taken more than just a bit of haze to trip him up. He couldn't multi-task and was in MT overload adding spatial disorientation, pitiful pre-flight and a bad foot. He screwed the pooch when he failed to redirect his bank prior to pitch, spiral city. His CFIs should have picked up on this MT thing..perhaps. |
#15
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Just push the blue button!
"Bob F." wrote in message
. .. "Mike" nospam@ microsoft.com wrote in message news "Tman" x@x wrote in message . .. Bob Noel wrote: hmmm, all the wx reports I saw were legal VMC (not smart VMC, but still \ I think you're confusing VMC and VFR. It may have been legal VFR. legal). Do you have reference to reports that the conditions were not VMC? The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows: The pilot's failure to maintain control of the airplane during a descent over water at night, which was a result of spatial disorientation. Factors in the accident were haze, and the dark night. That's IMC buddy. Could be a clear VACU night over water with no moonlight, and if you can't maintain a horizon due to those factors, thats IMC even though it is also very much legal VFR. No, that's not necessarily IMC. IMC means less than legal VFR. I believe he WAS in IMC, however there's little doubt he was at least in instrument conditions, which is not the same as IMC. As they say, looks like he flew into Cumulo-Granite. -- Regards, Bob F. Loks like you are combining multiple accidents: 1. J.F.Kennedy Jr. was asserted to be VFR in VMC sans horizon with horizontal visiblility well above minimum. He was generally regarded as a novice pilot and may have shown poor decision making and instrument skills. 2. Some have recently speculated that Steve Fossett may have encountered a mountain while in or exiting a brief period of IMC; but that has certainly not been established. He was regarded as an excellent pilot with, so far as I know, no detractors. Somehow, the parallel is not obvious. |
#16
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Just push the blue button!
"Gezellig" wrote in message
... On Sat, 04 Oct 2008 16:08:06 GMT, Mike wrote: At the time of the accident, John-John was training to get his instrument ticket and he had flown in IMC with an instructor at night. Although he wasn't ready for his checkride, he also wasn't completely ignorant of IFR. Clearly he was a victim of spatial disorientation, which certainly can happen at night, but that particular night he had at least some moonlight. That's why I think he probably got into a bit of IMC and lost it before the crash. I think it would have taken more than just a bit of haze to trip him up. He couldn't multi-task and was in MT overload adding spatial disorientation, pitiful pre-flight and a bad foot. He screwed the pooch when he failed to redirect his bank prior to pitch, spiral city. His CFIs should have picked up on this MT thing..perhaps. They did. "The CFI stated that the pilot's basic instrument flying skills and simulator work were excellent. However, the CFI stated that the pilot had trouble managing multiple tasks while flying, which he felt was normal for the pilot's level of experience." |
#17
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Just push the blue button!
"Darkwing" theducksmail"AT"yahoo.com wrote in
: Cirrus has added a new auto level button on their latest planes. Will a button on the stick that you push to automatically reset the plane to straight and level make any difference on Cirrus accidents or is it just a gimmick? What say you? Great, now peoaple as dumb as anthony wil start flying. Bertie |
#18
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Just push the blue button!
On Fri, 3 Oct 2008 21:28:05 -0400, "Darkwing"
theducksmail"AT"yahoo.com wrote: Cirrus has added a new auto level button on their latest planes. Will a button on the stick that you push to automatically reset the plane to straight and level make any difference on Cirrus accidents or is it just a gimmick? What say you? ************************************************** *********** Darkwing I'm told that some of the latest Fighters have a sensor that detects if the pilot blacks out due to the high 'G's' the newest fighters can pull and hold and that it returns the aircraft to level flight at cruise power settings, automatically. I know of several accidents that would have been prevented if that system had been in plane as the performance of Fighters increased and they could hold sustained high "G's" at structural limit. The F-20, two of which were lost due to, "G" induced pilot incapacitation. First was at Goose Bay, Labrador. Bird was on way to Paris Air Show and pilot went up to practice his show routine. After some maneuvers bird flew into ground in a long shallow glide angle and accident report cited pilot blackout as cause. The second was in Korea when a Koran General was being given a demo ride. Same thing and two more fatalities. The last, of three built, was given to the Air and Space Gallery in LA when Air Force and overseas sales did not materialize and F-16 was bought instead. Politics was involved as the F-20 out classed F-16 in many respects. Big John |
#19
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Just push the blue button!
On Sat, 04 Oct 2008 14:12:29 -0500, Tech Support wrote:
On Fri, 3 Oct 2008 21:28:05 -0400, "Darkwing" theducksmail"AT"yahoo.com wrote: Cirrus has added a new auto level button on their latest planes. Will a button on the stick that you push to automatically reset the plane to straight and level make any difference on Cirrus accidents or is it just a gimmick? What say you? ************************************************* ************ Darkwing I'm told that some of the latest Fighters have a sensor that detects if the pilot blacks out due to the high 'G's' the newest fighters can pull and hold and that it returns the aircraft to level flight at cruise power settings, automatically. I know of several accidents that would have been prevented if that system had been in plane as the performance of Fighters increased and they could hold sustained high "G's" at structural limit. The F-20, two of which were lost due to, "G" induced pilot incapacitation. First was at Goose Bay, Labrador. Bird was on way to Paris Air Show and pilot went up to practice his show routine. After some maneuvers bird flew into ground in a long shallow glide angle and accident report cited pilot blackout as cause. The second was in Korea when a Koran General was being given a demo ride. Same thing and two more fatalities. The last, of three built, was given to the Air and Space Gallery in LA when Air Force and overseas sales did not materialize and F-16 was bought instead. Politics was involved as the F-20 out classed F-16 in many respects. Big John ************************************************** *********************** Some more data on the auto recovery feature. The F-36 has it. Birds structual limits are +14 and -6 'G's". Auto recovery feature puts bird in a slight climb at 300 kts until pilot recovers and retakes control. Big John |
#20
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Just push the blue button!
"Tech Support" wrote in message
... On Fri, 3 Oct 2008 21:28:05 -0400, "Darkwing" theducksmail"AT"yahoo.com wrote: Cirrus has added a new auto level button on their latest planes. Will a button on the stick that you push to automatically reset the plane to straight and level make any difference on Cirrus accidents or is it just a gimmick? What say you? ************************************************** *********** Darkwing I'm told that some of the latest Fighters have a sensor that detects if the pilot blacks out due to the high 'G's' the newest fighters can pull and hold and that it returns the aircraft to level flight at cruise power settings, automatically. I know of several accidents that would have been prevented if that system had been in plane as the performance of Fighters increased and they could hold sustained high "G's" at structural limit. The F-20, two of which were lost due to, "G" induced pilot incapacitation. First was at Goose Bay, Labrador. Bird was on way to Paris Air Show and pilot went up to practice his show routine. After some maneuvers bird flew into ground in a long shallow glide angle and accident report cited pilot blackout as cause. The second was in Korea when a Koran General was being given a demo ride. Same thing and two more fatalities. The last, of three built, was given to the Air and Space Gallery in LA when Air Force and overseas sales did not materialize and F-16 was bought instead. Politics was involved as the F-20 out classed F-16 in many respects. Big John That's rather like comparing a formula one race car to the family sedan and saying what is a great idea for one is automatically a great idea for the other. It very well may be a great idea, but you certainly can't justify it using a military aircraft as an example. There's not too many Cirrus pilots who are likely to experience a G induced blackout, and even if they did they probably will have bigger problems to worry about anyway. |
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