"Refusing to Handle You"

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

Ignoring for the moment that switching from 7600 to 7700 is the incorrect
procedure for comm failure, it sounds like you're advocating deliberately
pretending to have comm failure so you can fly the route you want.

I assume you understand 14 CFR 91.3:

-----
Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and
is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in
command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to
meet that emergency.

(c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph (b) of
this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, send a written
report of that deviation to the Administrator.
-----

Let's see how this plays out. After you land, you call up FSS to cancel
your IFR flight plan, and the guy asks you what your emergency was. You
say, "I didn't like the route they gave me, so I turned off my radios and
continued NORDO". I can only imagine how the conversation would go after
that, but I'm sure it wouldn't be a very happy experience for you.


No doubt. Making that statement is an admission that he violated FAR
91.183. "The pilot in command of each aircraft operated under IFR in
controlled airspace shall have a continuous watch maintained on the
appropriate frequency....."

Roy Smith wrote:
Matt Whiting wrote:

OK. I always figured that the route was "pre sold" end to end before
being issued. I've gotten partial route clearances before and assumed
that was what happened when they couldn't get the entire route approved.
I'd have never guessed that getting a full route clearance left open
this sort of possibility. That seems bizarre to me.


Are you saying you've never gotten a reroute in flight?

No, didn't say that at all. I've never been given a NON-route in
mid-flight though, which is the topic at hand.


Matt

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

OK. I always figured that the route was "pre sold" end to end before
being issued. I've gotten partial route clearances before and assumed
that was what happened when they couldn't get the entire route approved.
I'd have never guessed that getting a full route clearance left open this
sort of possibility. That seems bizarre to me.



"Pre-selling" your clearance end-to-end before issuing it would create a
pretty inflexible system, one that could handle only a fraction of the
traffic it does now. What if a thunderstorm cell popped up on your route.
You'd probably like to deviate around it. So you ask ATC to deviate 20
degrees left of course and the response is, "Unable, that will put you into
airspace that has been pre-sold to another IFR flight." I don't think you'd
be happy with that response.

This really isn't any worse than what happened to the flight in question.

Matt

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

No, didn't say that at all. I've never been given a NON-route in
mid-flight though, which is the topic at hand.


No it isn't. All that happened here is the route that he had been cleared
on was not available to him and he had to select an alternative.

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

This really isn't any worse than what happened to the flight in question.


It isn't? Being required to fly through a cell is no worse than not being
required to fly through one?

Oops!
I guess I got my code squawks backwards.
Should have typed 7700 for one-minute, then 7600 for the remainder of
the flight.

"john smith" wrote in message
. ..

Oops!
I guess I got my code squawks backwards.
Should have typed 7700 for one-minute, then 7600 for the remainder of the
flight.


That's still wrong.

In article ,
john smith wrote:

Oops!
I guess I got my code squawks backwards.
Should have typed 7700 for one-minute, then 7600 for the remainder of
the flight.

If you want to squawk "Lost Comm", just set 7600 and leave it there.

The "7700 for one minute, then 7600" procedure predates me, but I
understand that a long time ago (like 15 or 20 years), that was how it was
done. No longer the case.

Thanks to all who replied. At Bob Gardner's suggestion, I emailed a
gentleman at Potomac who took the time to look into what happened and
to let me know the full story. It all makes sense, even if it was
puzzling at the time. As an asside, it's great that people in ATC take
trouble like this to let us pilots know what's going on under the hood.
It's part of what makes the US ATC system such a pleasure.

===BEGIN QUOTED TEXT===

Mike,

I think I have an answer for you. I talked to someone who specifically
remembers the incident. At the time the Center called, the controller
at Potomac was very busy accepting deviations that were landing at
Dulles. There was weather that was affecting the main arrival route
into Dulles (the one that comes over V143 and then over FDK). Aircraft
were deviating in that area. Additionally, another aircraft which was
pretty much flying the route that you wanted was deviating about 20
miles south of EMI for weather and could not get back to the north
trying to get to HAR. I think he departed JYO. The controller just
could not handle your flight at the time. I am glad it worked out for
you, getting to THV by way of Scape. Sorry we couldn't have been more
accomodating. If you have any other questions in the future, please
don't hesitate to ask. Thanks.

Scott Proudfoot
NATCA Eastern Regional Safety Rep
PCT TRACON

"Mike Granby" wrote in message

calls me and says "Err, 8096J, Potomac Approach is refusing to handle
you, say intentions."

The response to that is just what you gave in your original description:
"Unable Reroute due to weather"

The ball is then in their court.

You would be quite justified given the weather you described.

You already had an IFR clearance... period. Yes, you are required to accept
ATC clearance amendments that are reasonable but you are not required to
accept such a clearance if it will in your reasonable judgment endanger the
safety of your flight.

This is a good one to file a NASA ASRS form on to prevent similar situations
in the future.


--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com