Approach speeds for ILS

In a previous article, said:
Any thoughts as to why Approach Plates do not list the time for an
approach speed of 75 KIAS?

Because it's hard to land when you've got a Dash 8 embedded in your
backside?

--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
.... industry giant Microsoft Corporation... a company that has become
successful without resorting to software testing...
-- Unknown, rec.humor.funny

C J Campbell ) wrote:

I have no problem with flying the ILS at 90 or 100 knots if the ceiling is
well above minimums, but it seems to me that if the ceiling is 200 feet
overcast you ought to be flying the approach slowly enough that you can land
at that speed.

A slow ILS approach speed won't cut it when landing at Boston's Logan.
Granted I have only landed there four times in a C172S, but three of the
times we were IMC to just above DH. In every case ATC wanted us very fast
due to the long line of airliners behind us.

I do not think I am a skilled pilot yet, but I am able to slow the C172
down quickly enough to simulate braking pretty hard in an automobile; power
to idle, raise nose slightly, one notch of flaps, at 85 dump remaining
flaps. Knowing that the runway is over 10,000 feet certainly adds comfort
when flying the fast approach.


--
Peter












----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

CJ

I've got to respectfully disagree with you.

I teach my instrument students to fly approaches at 100 KIAS for most
single-engine bug-smashers because it's a lot easier to stay on course
when going faster, the cross wind has less effect, you don't hold up
traffic as much and, for any ILS equipped runway, you've got far more
runway available than you need, even if you up the speed to 120 KIAS.

On the other hand, having looked at too many accidents where the
pilots broke out at 200-300 feet up and started making changes to the
airplane configuration right then, including reducing power, and wound
up sticking the airplane into the approach lights (often in rain at
night where the refraction through the rain on the windshield caused
them to think they were high, despite having glideslope info on the
panel) I also empahsize that the pilot should not change ANYTHING
until crossing the runway threshold. The power setting, configuration
and speed were working just fine to stay on glide slope all the way
down, why change anything just because you are transitioning to
visual. In fact, that's the worst possible time to pull the power or
add flaps or what have you, as, if the wx is really crappy, you may
very well fly into a bit of scud that is below 200 feet and have to
make a go around...it's best to still have that energey so you can
zoom climb away from the ground. Plus, at 200 feet AGL, you aren't to
the runway, yet. So, leave everything as it is and take some time to
look around...you've got lots of time, you are only descending at
roughly 500-600 fpm at 100 KIAS, you aren't to the runway yet, so let
yourself figure out what's going on while keeping power and speed the
same for a while. If you leave well enough alone, you cross the
threshold at slightly over 50 feet AGL. Then, smoothly close the
throttle, roll in some nose up trip to hold your altitude right there,
above ground effect, when the airplane decelerates into the white arc,
select full flaps, trim as needed, then when it decelerates to normal
speed for final, descend, flare and land. Yes, you'll use about 3,000
feet of runway. Big deal. That's not the risky part of the ILS. The
risky part is crashing short of the runway, if the accident reports
are to be believed.

All the best,
Rick

"C J Campbell" wrote in message ...
We get foggy here at Tacoma Narrows this time of year (which is the reason I
post more on these groups in the winter than in the summer). One thing we
see a lot of is guys who fly the ILS too fast.

I have no problem with flying the ILS at 90 or 100 knots if the ceiling is
well above minimums, but it seems to me that if the ceiling is 200 feet
overcast you ought to be flying the approach slowly enough that you can land
at that speed. You don't need to configure for a short field landing, but
you are not going to slow from 90 knots to 60 in a Skyhawk in only 200 feet
of altitude, especially if you can't risk ballooning back up into the soup.

You just want to hold your breath when you hear somebody coming down the
ILS. You don't see him, but you hear the engine start to roar as he begins
his missed approach. Then he suddenly breaks through and tries to land
anyway. Sometimes they make it, probably touching down on the last half of
the runway, and sometimes they don't, having to make a go around back up
into the soup, only now the missed approach is all messed up, too.

Two lessons he

1) If the field is really at minimums, you have 200 feet to slow down to
landing speed. That is not much time. Better you should be ready to land
before you break out.

2) If you decide to go missed, then go missed. Don't change your mind just
because you got a glimpse of the runway as you were flying overhead.

"Peter R." wrote in message news:MPG.1a785834a2862bf5989961@text-
I do not think I am a skilled pilot yet, but I am able to slow the C172
down quickly enough to simulate braking pretty hard in an automobile; power
to idle, raise nose slightly, one notch of flaps, at 85 dump remaining
flaps. Knowing that the runway is over 10,000 feet certainly adds comfort
when flying the fast approach.

Same problem with Dulles. Not only is there 11,000+ fee of runway, but
even if you plant 500 feet passed fixed distance marker, you've still got 3000
feet before the first taxiway you can turn off on.

In article eMvPb.97683$5V2.322914@attbi_s53,
"Gary Drescher" wrote:
Since you have no choice about altitude during an ILS approach,
adding kinetic energy is the only way to increase your glide range.

That's not really true. You can't go below the GS, but nothing says you
can't fly the entire approach above the GS. There's nothing illegal or
inherently unsafe about flying the ILS 1 or 2 dots high. You wouldn't
want to do it in a jet, but in a spam can it's perfectly reasonable.

Nomen Nescio ]) wrote:

From: Peter R.

A slow ILS approach speed won't cut it when landing at Boston's Logan.
Granted I have only landed there four times in a C172S, but three of the
times we were IMC to just above DH. In every case ATC wanted us very fast
due to the long line of airliners behind us.

The Bonanza will make that easy.
Did you make the decision about going in on it, yet?

Still talking with the owner on how best to structure the partnership.
There are quite a few tax implications that we are working on with our
accountants. In fact, he is with his accountant today to come up with his
strategy.

Assuming this owner does not throw out some unreasonable number to buy in,
I am probably going to make the move. It really is a nice aircraft and I
look forward to the challenge of advancing to a high-performance, complex
aircraft.

--
Peter












----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

"Roy Smith" wrote in message ...
In article eMvPb.97683$5V2.322914@attbi_s53,
"Gary Drescher" wrote:
Since you have no choice about altitude during an ILS approach,
adding kinetic energy is the only way to increase your glide range.

That's not really true. You can't go below the GS, but nothing says you
can't fly the entire approach above the GS.

You're allowed to descend below the GS as part of your normal excursions
(the FAR's call them bracketing maneuvers) to track the glide slope.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
In article eMvPb.97683$5V2.322914@attbi_s53,
"Gary Drescher" wrote:
Since you have no choice about altitude during an ILS approach,
adding kinetic energy is the only way to increase your glide range.

That's not really true. You can't go below the GS, but nothing says you
can't fly the entire approach above the GS. There's nothing illegal or
inherently unsafe about flying the ILS 1 or 2 dots high. You wouldn't
want to do it in a jet, but in a spam can it's perfectly reasonable.

Point taken--I should have said little choice, not no choice. Still, the
added speed helpfully extends the glide range.

--Gary

"Richard Kaplan" wrote
What speed do you use to fly the ILS if asked to "keep your speed up"?

These are different situations. If you're asked to keep your speed
up, it's generally because you're landing at an air carrier airport.
That means only minimal tailwinds (if any) and very long runways. You
can float and float and float and land 5000+ ft down the runway and
it's still fine. Being able to fly an ILS fast is an important skill,
but it's not the ONLY important skill.

ILS runways are usually 5,000 feet or longer. You could dissipate speed
over the runway.

It's true that ILS runways with a total length of less than 5000 ft
are pretty rare - at least I've never seen one. However, the ILS and
(typically available) visual glideslope aid will not put you on the
numbers. Having an available landing distance of less than 5000 ft is
actually pretty common. Unfortunately, this typically happens at
airports served by only one ILS. If the weather is low enough to need
an ILS, it may require a tailwind landing. At such a place you will
not be asked to keep your speed up (unless the controller really
screwed up). On the other hand, if you're a bit fast on the ILS and a
bit slow to retard the throttle, you do risk overrunning the runway.

This brings us to another interesting problem. When visibilities are
less than a mile, especially at night, the visual cues available are
not really sufficient for precise control of the airplane. The visual
segment must be flown with at least some reference to instruments.
This is not something that is normally taught, and it's not really
something you can effectively practice in blue sky conditions. I
suspect that most of the pilots having trouble slowing down would have
done fine in good VMC flying under the hood.

I personally like to take an advanced instrument student to an airport
served by only one ILS when that approach is downwind, preferably in
low vis, at night, or both. This quickly reveals any lingering
technique issues, and lets us work them out in an environment that
won't cover them up. Once he can handle landing out of an ILS at
night with a 10 kt tailwind, he can pretty much handle any straight in
visual segment.

I suspect if you cross the runway threshold right on the glideslope at 90
knots in a Skyhawk with a 5,000 foot runway, there is no way you could
overrun the runway if you tried.

I suspect you're right - as long as there is really 5000 ft of landing
distance available and no significant tailwind. However, lately I'm
seeing a lot of people flying the ILS at 100+ kts in Cherokees and
Skyhawks. I find this fascinating since it's faster than I fly the
ILS in my twin, unless I am specifically instructed to keep my speed
up.

Michael

As soon as I intercept the glideslope I like to get my planed configured to
land, gear down, start putting in flaps, slow down, I use 90 kts when its for
real, but I sometimes use some stupid speeds when its under the hood and I am
going around (one time I had a tail wind on an ILS under the hood and and I did
it with gear up and no flaps, had 140 kts indicated and and like 170 kts GS.
that was a pretty quick approach)
but I choose to use 90 kts because I can slow down to 70 to land from that speed
real quick and also if I need to do a missed, I have just enough speed to be
able to take off again. I have a turbo charged engine so I have to apply power
slowly.
Even at places like long beach, ca where its very busy I use 90. they have never
asked for more when its IFR, they do when its VFR, but not IFR. So far.

C J Campbell wrote:

We get foggy here at Tacoma Narrows this time of year (which is the reason I
post more on these groups in the winter than in the summer). One thing we
see a lot of is guys who fly the ILS too fast.

I have no problem with flying the ILS at 90 or 100 knots if the ceiling is
well above minimums, but it seems to me that if the ceiling is 200 feet
overcast you ought to be flying the approach slowly enough that you can land
at that speed. You don't need to configure for a short field landing, but
you are not going to slow from 90 knots to 60 in a Skyhawk in only 200 feet
of altitude, especially if you can't risk ballooning back up into the soup.

You just want to hold your breath when you hear somebody coming down the
ILS. You don't see him, but you hear the engine start to roar as he begins
his missed approach. Then he suddenly breaks through and tries to land
anyway. Sometimes they make it, probably touching down on the last half of
the runway, and sometimes they don't, having to make a go around back up
into the soup, only now the missed approach is all messed up, too.

Two lessons he

1) If the field is really at minimums, you have 200 feet to slow down to
landing speed. That is not much time. Better you should be ready to land
before you break out.

2) If you decide to go missed, then go missed. Don't change your mind just
because you got a glimpse of the runway as you were flying overhead.

--
Christopher J. Campbell
World Famous Flight Instructor
Port Orchard, WA

If you go around beating the Bush, don't complain if you rile the animals.