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#41
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Tesla Model 3 and a glider
On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 3:37:34 PM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
Ah...Â* Someone previously mentioned getting about 50% back going down a hill from what he used going up.Â* I'm sure that's variable, too. I think these electric cars are terrific and, for a lot of folks, work out great.Â* But, for me and others who live out in the wilderness, they just can't yet compete with gasoline or diesel over the spectrum of use.Â* There will come a day, however, when the state of the art will announce the demise of internal combustion engines.Â* I hope I'm around to see it. On 12/15/2019 4:26 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote: On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 15:54:44 -0700, Dan Marotta wrote: Regenerative braking does work but, like other things in life, there's no free lunch.Â* There are losses (heat, friction, induction, hysteresis) in any system, electrical or mechanical, so you don't recoup all you spent going up hill by going down hill. Yes,I understand that (Chemistry degree, so allegedly I have/had a decent grasp on basic physics). So, I understand that you don't get back all the energy spent in getting higher when you come down again. What I don't understand is what proportion of that energy you get back, given the current state of automotive engineering. This is why I'm asking questions about it. -- Dan, 5J I think that is close enough for our purposes. By way of comparison, it takes 20% more energy to recharge my glider battery than it delivered. This includes battery and dc-dc charger inefficiencies. Tom |
#42
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Tesla Model 3 and a glider
On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 5:01:56 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
2G wrote on 12/15/2019 1:35 PM: On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 12:24:50 PM UTC-8, Mike N. wrote: This is the critical point. Energy density, it is really the limiting factor of electric versus fossil fueled vehicles. I'm really looking forward to new battery technology that can bring electric storage to be even relatively close to that of fossil fuels. Not to mention the battery deterioration, disposal, and replacement aspects. I like leading edge technologies. I think Tesla has done great things to push the technology forward. However I personally cannot afford the cost of being an early adopter of electric vehicles. Despite the the technogy advancement in e-vehicles made in the last 10 years, we are still in the infancy of this new breed of transportation. F I am really waiting for a larger hybrid mini SUV platform to come to maturity. Maybe you didn't get the memo, but auto manufacturers have tried and abandoned hybrid vehicles - they add a lot of cost for a small incremental benefit. The Tesla 100D already weighs in at a whooping 5400 lbs, about twice what an ICE sedan weighs. Adding an engine and transmission to that would bring it up to around 7000 lbs, more than my Super Duty F250 weighs. You would not add an engine and transmission to 5400 lb Tesla. You'd add a small engine/generator sufficient to keep the batteries charged at highway speed, and reduce the battery to, say, 100 mile capacity instead of 300 miles. It's then a plug-in hybrid, and it's characteristics are significantly different from a typical hybrid. It'd be cheaper than the 100D, because batteries are still relatively expensive. The Prius Prime is a good example, with 50 mpg on gas, 28 mile electric range, and 500 mile total range (10 gallon tank!). For most owners, most of the driving would be electric, and "gas milage" can easily exceed 150 mpg. But, we seem to have drifted rather far from the ability of a Tesla to tow a glider trailer. Let's get back to that. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me) - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1 You can already buy that car - it's called a Chevy Volt. That configuration doesn't seem to capture the imagination of the tree-hugging EV customer, however. There's no question that the Tesla can tow a glider, but at an incredibly slow overall speed (under 30 mph). And forget about going to Ely - well, you could throw in a motor-generator and a lot of gas. Tom |
#43
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Tesla Model 3 and a glider
You can always put a generator in the trailer to keep the car charged up,
but make sure its a three phase generator. At 02:43 16 December 2019, 2G wrote: On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 5:01:56 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote: 2G wrote on 12/15/2019 1:35 PM: On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 12:24:50 PM UTC-8, Mike N. wrote: This is the critical point. Energy density, it is really the limiting = factor of electric versus fossil fueled vehicles. I'm really looking forward to new battery technology that can bring el= ectric storage to be even relatively close to that of fossil fuels. Not to = mention the battery deterioration, disposal, and replacement aspects. I like leading edge technologies. I think Tesla has done great things = to push the technology forward. However I personally cannot afford the cost of being an early adopter = of electric vehicles. Despite the the technogy advancement in e-vehicles ma= de in the last 10 years, we are still in the infancy of this new breed of t= ransportation. F I am really waiting for a larger hybrid mini SUV platform to come to m= aturity. =20 Maybe you didn't get the memo, but auto manufacturers have tried and ab= andoned hybrid vehicles - they add a lot of cost for a small incremental be= nefit. The Tesla 100D already weighs in at a whooping 5400 lbs, about twice= what an ICE sedan weighs. Adding an engine and transmission to that would = bring it up to around 7000 lbs, more than my Super Duty F250 weighs. =20 =20 You would not add an engine and transmission to 5400 lb Tesla. You'd add = a small=20 engine/generator sufficient to keep the batteries charged at highway spee= d, and=20 reduce the battery to, say, 100 mile capacity instead of 300 miles. It's = then a=20 plug-in hybrid, and it's characteristics are significantly different from= a=20 typical hybrid. It'd be cheaper than the 100D, because batteries are stil= l=20 relatively expensive. The Prius Prime is a good example, with 50 mpg on g= as, 28=20 mile electric range, and 500 mile total range (10 gallon tank!). For most= owners,=20 most of the driving would be electric, and "gas milage" can easily exceed= 150 mpg. =20 But, we seem to have drifted rather far from the ability of a Tesla to to= w a=20 glider trailer. Let's get back to that. =20 =20 --=20 Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email= me) - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...s/download-th= e-guide-1 You can already buy that car - it's called a Chevy Volt. That configuration= doesn't seem to capture the imagination of the tree-hugging EV customer, h= owever. There's no question that the Tesla can tow a glider, but at an incredibly s= low overall speed (under 30 mph). And forget about going to Ely - well, you= could throw in a motor-generator and a lot of gas. Tom |
#44
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Tesla Model 3 and a glider
On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 15:43:11 -0800, 2G wrote:
I think that is close enough for our purposes. By way of comparison, it takes 20% more energy to recharge my glider battery than it delivered. This includes battery and dc-dc charger inefficiencies. Thanks, guys. Most helpful, especially the charging losses. -- Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org |
#45
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Tesla Model 3 and a glider
Yeah!Â* And have an extension cord between the trailer and the car and
keep the generator running in the trailer so that you don't have to stop until you need to pee, which you could mitigate by drilling a hole in the floor to run your relief system outside.Â* Oh, and bring a bunch of water along to clean up the glider of generator exhaust, or to put out the fire in the trailer. :-D Winter is less than a week away... On 12/16/2019 2:26 AM, Alan Garside wrote: You can always put a generator in the trailer to keep the car charged up, but make sure its a three phase generator. At 02:43 16 December 2019, 2G wrote: On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 5:01:56 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote: 2G wrote on 12/15/2019 1:35 PM: On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 12:24:50 PM UTC-8, Mike N. wrote: This is the critical point. Energy density, it is really the limiting = factor of electric versus fossil fueled vehicles. I'm really looking forward to new battery technology that can bring el= ectric storage to be even relatively close to that of fossil fuels. Not to = mention the battery deterioration, disposal, and replacement aspects. I like leading edge technologies. I think Tesla has done great things = to push the technology forward. However I personally cannot afford the cost of being an early adopter = of electric vehicles. Despite the the technogy advancement in e-vehicles ma= de in the last 10 years, we are still in the infancy of this new breed of t= ransportation. F I am really waiting for a larger hybrid mini SUV platform to come to m= aturity. =20 Maybe you didn't get the memo, but auto manufacturers have tried and ab= andoned hybrid vehicles - they add a lot of cost for a small incremental be= nefit. The Tesla 100D already weighs in at a whooping 5400 lbs, about twice= what an ICE sedan weighs. Adding an engine and transmission to that would = bring it up to around 7000 lbs, more than my Super Duty F250 weighs. =20 =20 You would not add an engine and transmission to 5400 lb Tesla. You'd add = a small=20 engine/generator sufficient to keep the batteries charged at highway spee= d, and=20 reduce the battery to, say, 100 mile capacity instead of 300 miles. It's = then a=20 plug-in hybrid, and it's characteristics are significantly different from= a=20 typical hybrid. It'd be cheaper than the 100D, because batteries are stil= l=20 relatively expensive. The Prius Prime is a good example, with 50 mpg on g= as, 28=20 mile electric range, and 500 mile total range (10 gallon tank!). For most= owners,=20 most of the driving would be electric, and "gas milage" can easily exceed= 150 mpg. =20 But, we seem to have drifted rather far from the ability of a Tesla to to= w a=20 glider trailer. Let's get back to that. =20 =20 --=20 Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email= me) - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...s/download-th= e-guide-1 You can already buy that car - it's called a Chevy Volt. That configuration= doesn't seem to capture the imagination of the tree-hugging EV customer, h= owever. There's no question that the Tesla can tow a glider, but at an incredibly s= low overall speed (under 30 mph). And forget about going to Ely - well, you= could throw in a motor-generator and a lot of gas. Tom -- Dan, 5J |
#46
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Tesla Model 3 and a glider
Dan Marotta wrote on 12/16/2019 8:13 AM:
Yeah!* And have an extension cord between the trailer and the car and keep the generator running in the trailer so that you don't have to stop until you need to pee, which you could mitigate by drilling a hole in the floor to run your relief system outside.* Oh, and bring a bunch of water along to clean up the glider of generator exhaust, or to put out the fire in the trailer. :-D Winter is less than a week away... Will the Tesla let you drive and charge simultaneously? I don't think it would have to be a 3 phase generator, but just a two phase 240VAC 40 amp to supply power like you have in a home, using a 10KW generator (kind of big for a glider trailer). That would almost double your range, since it can charge at 30 miles/hour. Still, I think I'd rather stop at a charger while I pee, get a bite to eat, and walk around some. My dream is a self-driving motorhome that can tow the glider while I hang out on the couch, sipping a glass of wine, catching up on RAS postings... |
#47
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Tesla Model 3 and a glider
On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 11:30:12 AM UTC-6, Eric Greenwell wrote:
My dream is a self-driving motorhome that can tow the glider while I hang out on the couch, sipping a glass of wine, catching up on RAS postings... Or, pulling the trailer to your next destination while you are soaring there! Steve Leonard |
#48
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Tesla Model 3 and a glider
On 12/16/2019 10:30 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote: My dream is a self-driving motorhome that can tow the glider while I hang out on the couch, sipping a glass of wine, catching up on RAS postings... Just put it on Cruise Control... -- Dan, 5J |
#49
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Tesla Model 3 and a glider
The electric Rover (I don't know the model) takes 38 hours to recharge on a
single phase supply but only 4 hours on a three phase supply. Is the Tesla 3 similar? At 17:56 16 December 2019, Dan Marotta wrote: On 12/16/2019 10:30 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote: My dream is a self-driving motorhome that can tow the glider while I hang out on the couch, sipping a glass of wine, catching up on RAS postings... Just put it on Cruise Control... -- Dan, 5J |
#50
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Tesla Model 3 and a glider
I didn't get the memo either.
I would think it depends a bit on what mission profiles you are thinking of as well as price-performance tradeoffs one might be willing to make. Also, the tradeoffs aren't necessarily as stark as what you describe - at least not when I looked at it. I recently ordered a plug-in hybrid SUV. It gets about 25 miles of range in all-electric mode, which should cover about 75% of my daily driving trips when I'm not going cross-country to a glider contest or something. Obviously in the higher desert of the western US and remote glider fields make it pretty impractical to be in an all-electric vehicle. My garage is pre-wired for 220V charging to that helped with the decision. One other reason I got it was the extra torque and horsepower. Max torque (electric motors have a super-flat torque curves compared to ICE propulsion) is 55% higher and horsepower is 36% higher at a cost of about 13% higher weight. This makes torque/weight about 35% higher and 0-60 time is about 25% faster. So the extra performance more than compensates for the extra 600 lbs in weight. It also allows you to go with a smaller and more efficient V-6 instead of a bigger, more expensive and less efficient gas engine. Yes, I know I probably don't need that much extra performance, but combining it with the all-electric around town capability pushed me over the edge. Yes, the base price is also 15% higher to get an electric plus gas engine, but this compares to a 75% premium (!) to go with a bigger ICE propulsion system. So, hybrid got me a similar performance boost at a fraction of the incremental cost. For me and my wide range of missions (very short trips plus very long trips) it made sense to go plug-in hybrid. I understand that the cost-performance tradeoff might not work for everyone, but it worked for me. I also tend to keep my cars for nearly a decade. That helps in the justification. Different manufacturers and models will present different design tradeoffs. I'm happy with my decision for now. Andy Blackburn 9B On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 3:36:02 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote: Maybe you didn't get the memo, but auto manufacturers have tried and abandoned hybrid vehicles - they add a lot of cost for a small incremental benefit. The Tesla 100D already weighs in at a whooping 5400 lbs, about twice what an ICE sedan weighs. Adding an engine and transmission to that would bring it up to around 7000 lbs, more than my Super Duty F250 weighs. Tom |
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