ATC CONTROLLER HIRING PUSH CREATES CLASS STRUGGLE

"John T" wrote in message
m...


Frankly, level of education is hardly a factor in our process. Your son,
for example, would get a phone screen (for a junior position) if he were
able to show experience with the technologies we use. The college program
should provide some of that experience as well as exposing him to concepts
like programming teams, requirements analysis and problem-solving - skills
perhaps more important than knowing the nuances of a given language.


It sounds like a reasonable process. I will point out that I don't feel a
candidate with no work experience and no education would ever get to the
phone screen, while someone with no work experience and a college program
may.

On May 1, 10:08 pm, "Steve Foley" wrote:
"John T" wrote in message

m...

I'll take that bet. I think the wash-out rate would be fairly consistent
regardless of education - and quite possibly slightly better for
non-degree trainees. I base this on my own experience
hiring/training/sometimes firing software developers.

"Can be taught" != "wants to learn".

What qualifications do you use for screening candidates?

Should I pull the plug on my son's tuition? He's a CS major (Game
Development)

It would really help if he did some actual work along the way.
That'll count far, far more than any degree in most software positions
(excepting perhaps crypto / math related).

The good software places to work at, don't give a bleep what degrees
you have... it's the real world experience and output that is critical
instead.

When we look at a potential employee, we're looking for projects where
the person worked both with and without supervision, and got along
well either way. We're looking for times they had to learn new stuff
on their own and innovate. We're looking for hard working types who
care about their output quality. We're also looking for people who
can spell grin, which is rare these days.

Just some thoughts,
Kev

Here's the FAA Air Traffic Control Workforce Plan web site:
http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff...ffing/#Scene_1
You can watch a lengthy video (closed caption) of the Administrator
and others talking on the subject, as well as a graph vindicating FAA
of not meeting the ATC staffing requirements.

On Wed, 02 May 2007 06:08:38 -0700, Kev wrote:

The good software places to work at, don't give a bleep what degrees you
have... it's the real world experience and output that is critical
instead.

This is only partially true.

When we look at a potential employee, we're looking for projects where the
person worked both with and without supervision, and got along well either
way. We're looking for times they had to learn new stuff on their own
and innovate. We're looking for hard working types who care about their
output quality. We're also looking for people who can spell grin,
which is rare these days.

Laugh That last is absolutely true. But it's not just the skill of
spelling; it's that this is a good metric for "output quality". If one
cannot proof his/her own resume and cover letter - documents of some
personal import - then what are we to expect with regard to software?

The issue with the degree is one of consistency and depth of knowledge.
We just interviewed, for example, someone that's well educated in general
but self-taught in computer science. If we'd not pushed the interview a
bit, he'd not have lasted five minutes.

His problem is that his understanding is spotty. When asked about inner
vs. outer joins, for example, he provided a nonsense answer (ie. one is
for 1:1; the other for 1:many). We inquired further, and it turns out
that he did understand these joins. He'd merely mixed a couple of
concepts up (in an incorrect but easily fixed fashion) which led to misuse
of the labels "1:1" and "1:many".

Learning on ones own can cause this. A class, with its defined
curriculum, should (no guarantee! {8^) avoid this by building knowledge in
a proper progression.

Another risk to the self-taught is failing to learn the "why" of
something. For simple work, this may not matter. But let's consider
locking as an example, sticking with the data store theme. Locking solves
a particular problem well for given circumstances. But w/o really
understanding why locking is right for those circumstances, one might miss
that the circumstances with which he or she is faced is better served by
(for example) some form of optimistic concurrency.

On the other hand, a degree is no guarantee that a person doesn't suffer
from these issues. That is for what interviews are. But school is an
opportunity to acquire a depth of knowledge that's a little tough on ones
own.

Still, it is the responsibility of the student to exploit the opportunity.

I have to admit, though: I don't know how this applies to a controller.
But I've little-to-no knowledge of that job.

- Andrew

On Wed, 02 May 2007 10:45:49 -0400, Andrew Gideon
wrote in :

I have to admit, though: I don't know how this [college degree] applies to a controller.

I can't find the cite now, but I recall reading that the prime
requirement for ATC controllers was some sort of natural aptitude,
much like that required of top computer game players.

I suspect, that military ATC controllers are not required to possess a
college degree. Perhaps that's where the impetus for FAA dropping the
requirement stems.

John T wrote:

One of the most useful items in our interview is a small 11-line method
pulled from our actual code base. This method came to my attention when a
critical defect was discovered in the code and I've been using in the
interviews ever since by asking the candidate two simple questions: Describe
the purpose of this method ("what does it do", not the "why") and describe
how you would unit test it to ensure proper operation.

Just out of curiosity, you wouldn't want to share that snippet of code
would you. I like a good challenge.

BTW, I agree that level of education is not a good indicator of how well
someone can do in their chosen field. Actually learning from the things
that are taught in college classes is only one of many ways to get a
degree. If you have attended college, you should know what I mean.

I disagree with your requirement that an applicant demonstrate
proficiency in the specific technology you are using in your business, a
talented software developer can learn a new technology easily. The only
exception would be if you need a people that can jump into a project as
quickly as possible. But if you are more interested in having a quality
employee over the long run, you would increase your chances of finding
top notch software developers if you didn't require them to have
experience in the exact tools you are currently using.

--
Chris W
KE5GIX

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Kev wrote:
We're also looking for people who
can spell grin, which is rare these days.


I can't think of a less relevant still than the ability to spell, as an
indicator as to how good someone may be at programming. That said,
someone who doesn't know how to use, as well as understand the
limitations of, a spell checker, is bound to be a pretty pathetic
programmer.

--
Chris W
KE5GIX

"Protect your digital freedom and privacy, eliminate DRM,
learn more at http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm"

Gift Giving Made Easy
Get the gifts you want &
give the gifts they want
One stop wish list for any gift,
from anywhere, for any occasion!
http://thewishzone.com

Chris W wrote:


Kev wrote:
We're also looking for people who
can spell grin, which is rare these days.


I can't think of a less relevant still than the ability to spell, as an
indicator as to how good someone may be at programming. That said,
someone who doesn't know how to use, as well as understand the
limitations of, a spell checker, is bound to be a pretty pathetic
programmer.


I have no idea how that T got where the K should have been.... must have
been a keyboard anomaly

--
Chris W
KE5GIX

"Protect your digital freedom and privacy, eliminate DRM,
learn more at http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm"

Gift Giving Made Easy
Get the gifts you want &
give the gifts they want
One stop wish list for any gift,
from anywhere, for any occasion!
http://thewishzone.com

Andrew Gideon wrote:
The good software places to work at, don't give a bleep what degrees you
have... it's the real world experience and output that is critical
instead.

This is only partially true.


Some shops take it too far. Years ago I recall applying for a position
involving a fairly rare specialty (one not normally taught at universities).
I got a polite rejection of my application with the explanation that they
could only consider candidates with degrees. It mattered not that I had been
working exclusively in their area of interest for over 5 yrs. Six months
later, the same company hired me as a contractor (at twice the pay), to come
in and fix the disaster created by the degreed professional that they had
hired instead.

When I jokingly asked the manager whether or not that might make them
change their views on hiring only degreed candidates, he said no. I made a
lot of money from that company over the years (as contractor).

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via http://www.aviationkb.com

In article , Chris W
wrote:

I can't think of a less relevant still than the ability to spell, as an
indicator as to how good someone may be at programming. That said,
someone who doesn't know how to use, as well as understand the
limitations of, a spell checker, is bound to be a pretty pathetic
programmer.


I have no idea how that T got where the K should have been.... must have
been a keyboard anomaly

and something a spell checker wouldn't find! :-)

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)