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FAA PTS "Slips to Landing" requirement vs No-spoiler landings



 
 
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  #21  
Old September 13th 09, 08:21 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 113
Default FAA PTS "Slips to Landing" requirement vs No-spoiler landings

bildan wrote:
On Sep 11, 12:01 am, Bruce wrote:
vaughn wrote:
"Mike the Strike" wrote in message
...
I do know of one where the spoiler handle on a Grob 103
broke after they had been deployed and jammed full open, resulting in
an off-field landing.
And I know of a case where just one spoiler deployed on a glider. Causes a
nasty uncommanded roll. The only solution (once you figure out what is
going on) is to close the spoilers and proceed without them.
Vaughn

Single spoiler deployment has caused at least one fatal accident.

If a linkage fails resulting in asymmetric airbrake deployment it is
possible to run out of options very quickly.

My thoughts are that you need to open the brakes to balance the drag and
lift asymmetry. Then you can fly the aircraft through the resulting
descending roll and recover. Depending on your height and speed it may
be quite pressing to land, it may also be quite pressing to reduce speed...
However - if this happens in a high energy state (where else?) you may
already have a lot of yaw and roll inertia by the time you get the other
airbrake open. Especially on a long winged open class ship there may
just not be enough control authority left, and if you are very fast
and/or very close to the ground the options are limited.

To overcome the differential lift caused by the yaw you may need full
rudder.
To limit the speed and avoid terrain you may need large elevator deflection.
To reverse the roll and return to level flight you almost certainly will
need full aileron.

You are unlikely to find such a high G, rolling pull up close to , or
over Vne with airbrakes deployed in the manual.

There is a reason for that "max manoeuvre speed" entry...

A little math says that at 250km/h and 300m (~1000")AGL a 30 degree
descent angle will give you less than 8 seconds to avoid terrain.


40 years ago I was involved in building and testing a glider with
spoilers for roll control instead of ailerons. Preliminary flight
tests were done on normal gliders rigged to permit one spoiler to be
deployed at a time.

The first thing we learned is that spoilers don't do what they are
generally thought to do.

The results of asymmetrical spoiler deployment vary dramatically with
airspeed since drag increases with the square of airspeed but lift
which is 'spoiled' pretty much remains constant with airspeed. (Any
lift reduction is transient since the glider quickly re-establishes
equilibrium at one G flight where lift =weight.)

The bottom line was that below some airspeed like 50kts, weak roll
(~10% of aileron authority) was the dominate result and above that
powerful yaw was the dominate result. We found it best to regard
differential spoilers as yaw control devices. Thus the concept of
roll spoilers was a failure.

In one iteration, spoilers were rigged to the pedals with the normal
rudder fixed in neutral. With yaw spoilers, ailerons and elevator, we
had a remarkably agile glider - albeit not a particularly efficient
one.

So, the accidental deployment of one spoiler will result in powerful
yaw not roll which leads me to the subject of using one in a slip.

Al relatively low speed I would expect this to be reasonably controllable.

It would be interesting to test this at high speed - the yaw will be
severe at full open, the secondary effect of that yaw will be a roll in
the direction of the open spoiler. The uncoordinated flight is going to
increase drag significantly, and the glider will start to descend.
In the case of an open class/long winged glider the roll may exceed
aileron authority if this happens at high speed.
Even with 15m wingspan you are going to need significant control input
on the ailerons.

a glider one quickly finds the limit is available rudder
authority. With full rudder one can use only about 15 degrees of bank
while maintain a straight track. However, with one spoiler deployed,
the pilot has far more 'rudder' authority in the direction of the open
spoiler and a far steeper bank can be used. This results in an
incredibly steep approach.

This situation is 'dangerous' only to the extent the pilot doesn't
understand how to control his partially disabled aircraft.


Full control input on an already stressed airframe at speeds above max
manoeuvring speed is not advisable - but may be the only option available.

The only incident I know of the glider ended up in tiny pieces of carbon.
  #22  
Old September 13th 09, 03:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
bildan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 646
Default FAA PTS "Slips to Landing" requirement vs No-spoiler landings

On Sep 13, 1:21*am, Bruce wrote:
bildan wrote:
On Sep 11, 12:01 am, Bruce wrote:
vaughn wrote:
"Mike the Strike" wrote in message
....
I do know of one where the spoiler handle on a Grob 103
broke after they had been deployed and jammed full open, resulting in
an off-field landing.
And I know of a case where just one spoiler deployed on a glider. *Causes a
nasty uncommanded roll. *The only solution (once you figure out what is
going on) is to close the spoilers and proceed without them.
Vaughn
Single spoiler deployment has caused at least one fatal accident.


If a linkage fails resulting in asymmetric airbrake deployment it is
possible to run out of options very quickly.


My thoughts are that you need to open the brakes to balance the drag and
lift asymmetry. Then you can fly the aircraft through the resulting
descending roll and recover. Depending on your height and speed it may
be quite pressing to land, it may also be quite pressing to reduce speed...
However - if this happens in a high energy state (where else?) you may
already have a lot of yaw and roll inertia by the time you get the other
airbrake open. Especially on a long winged open class ship there may
just not be enough control authority left, and if you are very fast
and/or very close to the ground the options are limited.


To overcome the differential lift caused by the yaw you may need full
rudder.
To limit the speed and avoid terrain you may need large elevator deflection.
To reverse the roll and return to level flight you almost certainly will
need full aileron.


You are unlikely to find such a high G, rolling pull up close to , or
over Vne with airbrakes deployed in the manual.


There is a reason for that "max manoeuvre speed" entry...


A little math says that at 250km/h and 300m (~1000")AGL a 30 degree
descent angle will give you less than 8 seconds to avoid terrain.


40 years ago I was involved in building *and testing a glider with
spoilers for roll control instead of ailerons. *Preliminary flight
tests were done on normal gliders rigged to permit one spoiler to be
deployed at a time.


The first thing we learned is that spoilers don't do what they are
generally thought to do.


The results of asymmetrical spoiler deployment vary dramatically with
airspeed since drag increases with the square of airspeed but lift
which is 'spoiled' pretty much remains constant with airspeed. *(Any
lift reduction is transient since the glider quickly re-establishes
equilibrium at one G flight where lift =weight.)


The bottom line was that below some airspeed like 50kts, weak roll
(~10% of aileron authority) was the dominate result and above that
powerful yaw was the dominate result. *We found it best to regard
differential spoilers as yaw control devices. *Thus the concept of
roll spoilers was a failure.


In one iteration, spoilers were rigged to the pedals with the normal
rudder fixed in neutral. *With yaw spoilers, ailerons and elevator, we
had a remarkably agile glider - albeit not a particularly efficient
one.


So, the accidental deployment of one spoiler will result in powerful
yaw not roll which leads me to the subject of using one in a slip.


Al relatively low speed I would expect this to be reasonably controllable..

It would be interesting to test this at high speed - the yaw will be
severe at full open, the secondary effect of that yaw will be a roll in
the direction of the open spoiler. The uncoordinated flight is going to
increase drag significantly, and the glider will start to descend.
In the case of an open class/long winged glider the roll may exceed
aileron authority if this happens at high speed.
Even with 15m wingspan you are going to need significant control input
on the ailerons.

* a glider one quickly finds the limit is available rudder

authority. *With full rudder one can use only about 15 degrees of bank
while maintain a straight track. *However, with one spoiler deployed,
the pilot has far more 'rudder' authority in the direction of the open
spoiler and a far steeper bank can be used. *This results in an
incredibly steep approach.


This situation is 'dangerous' only to the extent the pilot doesn't
understand how to control his partially disabled aircraft.


Full control input on an already stressed airframe at speeds above max
manoeuvring speed is not advisable - but may be the only option available..

The only incident I know of the glider ended up in tiny pieces of carbon.


A little fuzzy. We did try full deployment of one spoiler at high
speed and the results were not pretty.

The roll 'effect' produced by asymmetric spoilers is fairly constant
with changing airspeed but aileron authority increases with increasing
speed. At no time is the roll effect of an open spoiler greater than
the aileron roll effect.

However, and this is the big one, the yaw effect produced by
asymmetric spoilers increases with the square of airspeed and will
quickly overwhelm rudder authority at higher speeds. Further, if the
pilot applies aileron to oppose 'spoiler roll', adverse yaw will add
to that produced by the open spoiler making matters worse.

The situation is not unlike dealing with a engine out in a light twin
airplane where the open spoiler is analogous to the dead engine. It's
difficult but doable. Banking away from the open spoiler makes
maintaining control easier just as banking away from a dead engine
does.
  #23  
Old September 13th 09, 11:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,096
Default FAA PTS "Slips to Landing" requirement vs No-spoiler landings

bildan wrote:


A little fuzzy. We did try full deployment of one spoiler at high
speed and the results were not pretty.

The roll 'effect' produced by asymmetric spoilers is fairly constant
with changing airspeed but aileron authority increases with increasing
speed. At no time is the roll effect of an open spoiler greater than
the aileron roll effect.

However, and this is the big one, the yaw effect produced by
asymmetric spoilers increases with the square of airspeed and will
quickly overwhelm rudder authority at higher speeds.


Is this what you experienced? I'd expect the rudder authority to also
increase with the square of the airspeed, just as lift does for the same
angle of attack.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* Sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org
  #24  
Old September 14th 09, 12:40 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
bildan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 646
Default FAA PTS "Slips to Landing" requirement vs No-spoiler landings

On Sep 13, 4:47*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
bildan wrote:

A little fuzzy. *We did try full deployment of one spoiler at high
speed and the results were not pretty.


The roll 'effect' produced by asymmetric spoilers is fairly constant
with changing airspeed but aileron authority increases with increasing
speed. *At no time is the roll effect of an open spoiler greater than
the aileron roll effect.


However, and this is the big one, the yaw effect produced by
asymmetric spoilers increases with the square of airspeed and will
quickly overwhelm rudder authority at higher speeds.


Is this what you experienced? I'd expect the rudder authority to also
increase with the square of the airspeed, just as lift does for the same
angle of attack.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* "Transponders in Sailplanes"http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* * * Sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org


Yep, to the point of flying sideways.

Bill D
  #25  
Old September 15th 09, 02:21 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Joe
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default FAA PTS "Slips to Landing" requirement vs No-spoiler landings

The Practical Test Standard was clarified regarding "Slips to Landing"
that an actual slip to landing was not required. I have not
instructed in a few years and maybe this had been clarified in the PTS
but in the "Designee Update" of Jan.2000 this was clarified after an
instructor in MN brought up the question to the FAA. I quote it
below:

AFS-600 Regulatory Support Division,
Designee Update
Vol.12, No.1 January 2000

“GLIDER SLIPS”
For you folks who operate in the glider community,
the April 1999 Private and Commercial Pilot-Glider
Practical Test Standards include a landing TASK
entitled “Slips to Landing.” In the objective, the
applicant is required to “establish a slip without the
use of drag devices” and then complete a landing.
We have had questions on whether the applicant
should complete the landing, with or without the
use of drag devices.
There was never any intent to require an applicant to
complete the landing without the use of drag
devices. The applicant is only required to
demonstrate a slip (forward or side) without using
drag devices, to position the glider for a safe
landing. Element 6 of the TASK states; “make
smooth, proper, and positive control applications
during recovery from the slip.” Once this has been
accomplished, the maneuver being evaluated is
over. The applicant then lands the glider within the
designated landing area, using drag devices as
appropriate.
Most important for examiner standardization, the
examiner should not add or decrease elements to
this task, or any other task, by asking the applicant
to do
more or less than is required.




On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 10:16:07 -0700 (PDT), John Cochrane
wrote:

I think it's a useful maneuver in the same way that boxing the wake is
-- it tells the examiner you're really in charge of the aircraft and
pattern planning. We don't really do it for broken spoilers, that's a
once in a gazillion event. That's why the new PTS does not require an
actual landing with spoilers, only demonstration of glide path control
using spoilers alone.

The PTS should also require slips WITH spoilers not slips INSTEAD of
spoilers. That's the maneuver you will use, when too high, to get in
to a field, etc. Many pilots have no idea how steeply you can in fact
come down. We'll just have to train that on our own. I've been having
fun with students -- the challenge is, set up a landing so that you
will use full slip and full spoiler on final. If you have to back off,
you buy the beer (after flying)

John Cochrane


 




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