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Unintentional fully-developed spins...



 
 
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  #11  
Old January 30th 04, 04:13 AM
JJ Sinclair
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Mark,
I have owned over 40 sailplanes and flown over 50 types while logging 4110 hrs
in sailplanes. I have never entered an unintentional spin and "get this" I have
never even had a full unintentional stall in any sailplane. Once turning final
for a rocky, up hill, landing, I got pre-stall buffet in my H-301 libelle,
eased off a bit on the back stick and landed OK. On another occasion I was
stretching the glide to a duster strip in the Sierras (Sunrise) and arrived
there with 500 feet, flew an abbreviated down wind, lowered the flaps, lowered
the gear, cracked the spoilers and turned left, all from about 45 knots. The
LS-6 just shook its head and said, "I don't think so". Shoved the stick forward
and landed OK. I think its all about feeling the ship. Most pilots have the
feel of what's going on, a few don't and they never will.
I believe we should be doing spin entry followed by emmediate recovery, just in
case, but a well flown sailplane won't be in need of any spin recovery.
JJ Sinclair
  #12  
Old January 30th 04, 04:47 AM
Bill Daniels
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"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message
m...
OK, I'm curious. How many of you have had to recover from a fully
developed (greater than one turn), unintentional spin that occurred
during normal non-aerobatic flight?

I've got close to 1000 hours in roughly 25 different types of single
seat and higher performance two seat gliders, with stall/spin
characteristics ranging from "benign" to "interesting", and while I've
had my share of accidental spin entries (all while thermaling in
turbulent conditions), I can't remember a single one that went beyond a
quarter turn before recovery.

Where I first learned to fly gliders, everyone went up in for a single
flight in a 2-32 to do their "spin training" prior to solo. The 2-32
spins quite nicely, but the whole thing was such a bizarrely alien
experience, that was seemingly irrelevant to "normal" flying.

I experienced much more relevant spin training when I was being checked
out in a K-13 a few years later. We had about 8000 feet to waste, so
the instructor had me to set up a moderately banked turn, feed in a bit
of extra bottom rudder, then asked me to see how slowly I could fly.
After the "what the f*ck" moment as the ground and sky swapped places, I
managed to recover in a turn or so. He spent the rest of the flight
showing me how to induce and recognize different kinds of spin entries,
and how to recover from them as quickly as possible.

These days, at the beginning of each season, I make sure I have the spin
recovery procedure in the manual memorized, and try various types of
spin entries with slightly delayed recovery (roughly one quarter to one
half turn). When I first fly with water, I do the same. I have not
tried fully developed spins in any glider I've owned, other than my
DG-303 Acro. Some have been placarded against spins, in the others, I
just haven't felt it to be necessary or appropriate.

Marc


It's never happened to me, but I have observed two spins all the way to the
ground. In neither case was it obvious that the pilots were making any
attempt to stop the spin.

One was a Stan Hall Cherokee - a wood and fabric homebuilt single seater.
It made at least 20 turns before impact. The spin looked normal to me but
some people speculated that the CG was too far aft. The pilot survived with
serious injuries. He said that, "it just got away from me while
thermalling".

The other was a LK-10 (Wood and fabric two seater built for the US military
during WWII). It spun off the top of a winch launch at Torry Pines and went
at least 6 normal looking turns to impact. Neither occupant survived.

Bill Daniels

  #13  
Old January 30th 04, 05:15 AM
Geir Raudsandmoen
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At 03:18 30 January 2004, Jj Sinclair wrote:
Mark,
I have owned over 40 sailplanes and flown over 50 types
while logging 4110 hrs
in sailplanes. I have never entered an unintentional
spin and 'get this' I have
never even had a full unintentional stall in any sailplane.
Once turning final
for a rocky, up hill, landing, I got pre-stall buffet
in my H-301 libelle,
eased off a bit on the back stick and landed OK. On
another occasion I was
stretching the glide to a duster strip in the Sierras
(Sunrise) and arrived
there with 500 feet, flew an abbreviated down wind,
lowered the flaps, lowered
the gear, cracked the spoilers and turned left, all
from about 45 knots. The
LS-6 just shook its head and said, 'I don't think so'.
Shoved the stick forward
and landed OK. I think its all about feeling the ship.
Most pilots have the
feel of what's going on, a few don't and they never
will.
I believe we should be doing spin entry followed by
emmediate recovery, just in
case, but a well flown sailplane won't be in need of
any spin recovery.
JJ Sinclair


But a sailplane ain't always flown well.
Nobody is perfect, not even you.

Geir




  #15  
Old January 30th 04, 08:49 AM
F.L. Whiteley
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"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message
om...
Chris Nicholas wrote:

Marc Ramsey wrote:
"OK, I'm curious. How many of you have had to recover
from a fully developed (greater than one turn), unintentional
spin that occurred during normal non-aerobatic flight?" [snip]

Not me personally, but I have known, or known of, several pilots who
did. Most died, after cable breaks, mismanaged aftermath, and spins
into the ground from about 600 feet. Of two who survived, one couldn't
explain why he didn't effect prompt recovery - has since given up
gliding. The other I referred to earlier - didn't realise it was a
spin, thought tail had come off.


What I asked is if anyone here has properly recognized a spin entry,
immediately attempted recovery, and not been able to do so in well under
a turn. For my own education, I would like to know the circumstances.

Not yet

You may not get many first person replies, because those who did are
mostly no longer with us. I would hope our training regimes strive to
prevent too many more, not only by Eric Greenwell's 4, 3 and 2 (which
I entirely support) but also by 1, time and again, until people no
longer fail to realise what they have done when they somehow skip over
4, 3, and 2, stop panicking, and can recover.


I feel that I, personally, benefit a great deal more from practicing to
properly recognize and recover from a spin entry immediately, than I do
from practicing initiating a spin, holding it for a few turns, then
recovering.

I get occasional incipient entries while thermaling, but was, I believe,
properly trained to recognize and respond appropriately, so none have
developed into full spins inadvertantly. I do practice this regularly also
and do a 1-2 turn spin from time to time.

The Brits had a training concept when I initially learned to soar, 'recovery
from unusual attitudes'. The instructor would but the glider in an awkward
attitude and allow the student to recover to straight and level. Could be
nose up, down, cross controls, whatever. The important part was the proper
input to get things back in control.

I recall one odd day when flying my SHK not too far off the Anglia coast. I
think the air had a bit of shear. I went to turn to the left, but the
glider definitely wanted to roll right. Speed was fine, but I had the
distinct impression that the air was rolling or in vertical shear in a
clockwise direction. After a few seconds things went back to normal, but
for a bit I thought I'd flick over the top of the turn and I really wasn't
looking forward to it.

Frank Whiteley


Frank


  #16  
Old January 30th 04, 09:15 AM
F.L. Whiteley
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IS 28 and IS 29 both have relatively large cordwise ailerons. Using too
much aileron for incipient recovery may result in a full spin, but
especially in where the aileron is a large percentage of the chord.. Our
club chairman test flew an IS 29 that our club (1979?) was considering at
one point and rejected it for this very reason. I personally found the IS
28 a nice platform but know that others were cautious or critical. I recall
comments, a la Puchaz, from around 1980, after a few spin-ins, including two
UK instructors in one instance.

You are invited to google this thread from 1995, http://tinyurl.com/2gg7r

Frank Whiteley


"Raphael Warshaw" wrote in message
m...
Marc:

I had an unintentional spin from a thermalling turn in a Baby Lark.
There was no warning (at least that I noticed), the entry was over the
top and the glider ended up spinning oposite the direction I had been
thermalling. Once I realized that it was spinning, it recovered
normally but I lost a lot of altitude before I figured it out. At
12,000 feet where it happened, it was a non-event. At 1,000 feet it
most likely would have killed me.

In turning stalls, this particular Baby Lark ALWAYS dropped a wing,
but this was quite different. In a turning stall, my own ship just
mushes until the nose drops. It will spin, but it has to be put there.

The Lark was, BTW, a rental ship and I don't remember any special
emphasis on its spin characteristics during my checkout. I continued
to fly it afterwards until it was destroyed by someone who tried to
land it perpendicular to a road. I never let it get slow near the
ground or unintentionally again, though.

Ray Warshaw

Marc Ramsey wrote in message

om...


  #17  
Old January 30th 04, 03:16 PM
Robert Ehrlich
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JJ Sinclair wrote:
...
The LS-6 just shook its head and said, "I don't think so". Shoved the stick forward
and landed OK. I think its all about feeling the ship. Most pilots have the
feel of what's going on, a few don't and they never will.
...


I compeletely agree. I remember some occasions where this was exactly my
feeling (the glider saying "I don't think so"). Maybe one thing which
contributed to develop this feeling is my previous practice of windsurfing.
When your weigth is just balanced by the lift of the sail (or rather by
a component of this force) and a loss of lift ends in a dive into cold
water, you quickly become very sensitive to any kind of loss of lift.
I had least year a discussion with a German pilot who also was windsurfing,
and he said he had exacltly the same feelings.
  #18  
Old January 30th 04, 03:31 PM
nafod40
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Bob Kuykendall wrote:

I've watched an ASW-20, flown by a well-respected pilot,
flick into a spin while thermalling. Including the
recovery, it went about a turn and a half.


I haven't spun gliders, but I have hundreds of hours spinning Navy jets.
In the larger planes, there was a period of post stall gyration (PSG)
before entering a spin proper, with a spin defined as steady state yaw
rate, pitch attitude, and AOA (or not too big oscillations about a
state). PSG could last a fair number of turns.

So was the ASW-20 really in a spin? Steady state?

  #19  
Old January 30th 04, 04:46 PM
JJ Sinclair
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Geir wrote
But a sailplane ain't always flown well.
Nobody is perfect, not even you.


I don't claim to be perfect, but I do think too much emphasis is being spent on
spin training by some contries. For what its worth, I think we got it just
about right here in the US. Spins are demonstrated to the student and the rest
is up to the instructor. Most, I believe have the student show profiency in
immediate spin recovery (less than 1 turn). Reoccuring training (biennials) are
again, up to the instructor.

The brits, on the other hand, went out looking for a 2-seater that was easy to
spin and they found a GOOD one in the Puch. Mike believes that 15 have spun-in,
world wide and the Brits are investigating their 4th Puch-in.

Modern German sailplanes are quite well behaved and some won't spin at all. Why
are we continuing to overemphasize full blown spins? Purchase trainers that are
dificult to spin and teach spin avoidance. Sure, we should be comfortable with
a spin entry and immediate recovery, but some contries are making the cure more
deadly than the disease.

BTW, I'm talking about modern German gliders, If yiu fly the Puch, Lark (single
or 2-place) or the SZD 69, I would recommend extensive and recurring spin
training.
JJ Sinclair
  #20  
Old January 30th 04, 05:27 PM
Bob Kuykendall
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Earlier, (Slingsby) wrote:

Do you also mean high aspect ratio
wings with poorly glued spar caps?


Geez, there you go again.

No, I don't.
 




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