PowerFLARM Mode S question

PowerFLARM is supposed to have the capability to detect and display
Mode S 1090ES position data on its display. How many aircraft
(Airliners, bizjets?) currently send out 1090ES data?

This is for the US, of course.

Kirk
66

On Oct 21, 10:36*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
PowerFLARM is supposed to have the capability to detect and display
Mode S 1090ES position data on its display. *How many aircraft
(Airliners, bizjets?) currently send out 1090ES data?

This is for the US, of course.

Kirk
66

Very very few right now - if you can find better information I'd love
to know. UPS and a few others are working on equipping faster than
most.

There is very little reason for biz jets to equip. UPS and some others
can argue for playing with this to look at scheduling, future in-trail
separation benefits etc. and UPS has been a leader in ADS-B technology
for a while -- their Louisville airport hub has ADS-B ground station
deployment early for this reason. Biz jets and others there are very
few argument for being an early user.

The FAA recently set the pretty draconian requirement for every ADS-B
data-out installation to be done via an STC, and specifically forbade
337/field approval. So even with full TSO approval of the WAAS GPS and
ADS-B data-out device they require each installation type (airframe +
equipment combo) to have an STC. This is supposed to go away
eventually, but who knows when. This single requirement will stifle
ADS-B data-out deployment in GA aircraft. This impediment to ADS-B
data-out deployment is a double whammy in the USA since you need ADS-B
data-out for TIS-B and ADS-R to work effectively (not that the
infrastructure to do those are widely deployed yet they will be over
the next few years). You've got to scratch you head with the whole FAA
handling of ADS-B.

The only think I think we can say with confidence is that by 2020 most
aircraft that today have transponders will have ADS-B data-out. I
expect many of those will be 1090ES (but will see). Of course there is
some finite probability the wheels could come off the bus along the
way.

Darryl

On Oct 21, 11:30*am, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Oct 21, 10:36*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:

PowerFLARM is supposed to have the capability to detect and display
Mode S 1090ES position data on its display. *How many aircraft
(Airliners, bizjets?) currently send out 1090ES data?

This is for the US, of course.

Kirk
66

Very very few right now - if you can find better information I'd love
to know. UPS and a few others are working on equipping faster than
most.

There is very little reason for biz jets to equip. UPS and some others
can argue for playing with this to look at scheduling, future in-trail
separation benefits etc. and UPS has been a leader in ADS-B technology
for a while -- their Louisville airport hub has ADS-B ground station
deployment early for this reason. Biz jets and others there are very
few argument for being an early user.

The FAA recently set the pretty draconian requirement for every ADS-B
data-out installation to be done via an STC, and specifically forbade
337/field approval. So even with full TSO approval of the WAAS GPS and
ADS-B data-out device they require each installation type (airframe +
equipment combo) to have an STC. This is supposed to go away
eventually, but who knows when. This single requirement will stifle
ADS-B data-out deployment in GA aircraft. This impediment to ADS-B
data-out deployment is a double whammy in the USA since you need ADS-B
data-out for TIS-B and ADS-R to work effectively (not that the
infrastructure to do those are widely deployed yet they will be over
the next few years). You've got to scratch you head with the whole FAA
handling of ADS-B.

The only think I think we can say with confidence is that by 2020 most
aircraft that today have transponders will have ADS-B data-out. I
expect many of those will be 1090ES (but will see). Of course there is
some finite probability the wheels could come off the bus along the
way.

Darryl

One thing I meant to include was that Europe has a 2015 mandate for
1090ES data-out for existing heavy aircraft (5,700kg) and a 2011
mandate for new aircraft (,5700kg) - so that likely gets many
international carriers to equip earlier than they otherwise might for
the USA alone. So that will drive some of the fleet flying in the USA
to be equipped. Not that it is likely the international B767/B777/B747
type airliners that we get near most of the time with gliders in the
USA.


Darryl

On Oct 21, 2:30*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Oct 21, 10:36*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:

PowerFLARM is supposed to have the capability to detect and display
Mode S 1090ES position data on its display. *How many aircraft
(Airliners, bizjets?) currently send out 1090ES data?

This is for the US, of course.

Kirk
66

Very very few right now - if you can find better information I'd love
to know. UPS and a few others are working on equipping faster than
most.

There is very little reason for biz jets to equip. UPS and some others
can argue for playing with this to look at scheduling, future in-trail
separation benefits etc. and UPS has been a leader in ADS-B technology
for a while -- their Louisville airport hub has ADS-B ground station
deployment early for this reason. Biz jets and others there are very
few argument for being an early user.

The FAA recently set the pretty draconian requirement for every ADS-B
data-out installation to be done via an STC, and specifically forbade
337/field approval. So even with full TSO approval of the WAAS GPS and
ADS-B data-out device they require each installation type (airframe +
equipment combo) to have an STC. This is supposed to go away
eventually, but who knows when. This single requirement will stifle
ADS-B data-out deployment in GA aircraft. This impediment to ADS-B
data-out deployment is a double whammy in the USA since you need ADS-B
data-out for TIS-B and ADS-R to work effectively (not that the
infrastructure to do those are widely deployed yet they will be over
the next few years). You've got to scratch you head with the whole FAA
handling of ADS-B.

The only think I think we can say with confidence is that by 2020 most
aircraft that today have transponders will have ADS-B data-out. I
expect many of those will be 1090ES (but will see). Of course there is
some finite probability the wheels could come off the bus along the
way.

Darryl

Anyone seen this little jewel, seems there is a new report out from
the OIG that ADS-B will be far more expensive than the FAA has
projected... FAA Report Number AV-2011-002 issued 10-12-2010 see
dot.gov//library-item/5415

Like up to 30 for GA aircraft and 600K for airliners....

On Oct 21, 6:47*pm, ray conlon wrote:
On Oct 21, 2:30*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:



On Oct 21, 10:36*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:

PowerFLARM is supposed to have the capability to detect and display
Mode S 1090ES position data on its display. *How many aircraft
(Airliners, bizjets?) currently send out 1090ES data?

This is for the US, of course.

Kirk
66

Very very few right now - if you can find better information I'd love
to know. UPS and a few others are working on equipping faster than
most.

There is very little reason for biz jets to equip. UPS and some others
can argue for playing with this to look at scheduling, future in-trail
separation benefits etc. and UPS has been a leader in ADS-B technology
for a while -- their Louisville airport hub has ADS-B ground station
deployment early for this reason. Biz jets and others there are very
few argument for being an early user.

The FAA recently set the pretty draconian requirement for every ADS-B
data-out installation to be done via an STC, and specifically forbade
337/field approval. So even with full TSO approval of the WAAS GPS and
ADS-B data-out device they require each installation type (airframe +
equipment combo) to have an STC. This is supposed to go away
eventually, but who knows when. This single requirement will stifle
ADS-B data-out deployment in GA aircraft. This impediment to ADS-B
data-out deployment is a double whammy in the USA since you need ADS-B
data-out for TIS-B and ADS-R to work effectively (not that the
infrastructure to do those are widely deployed yet they will be over
the next few years). You've got to scratch you head with the whole FAA
handling of ADS-B.

The only think I think we can say with confidence is that by 2020 most
aircraft that today have transponders will have ADS-B data-out. I
expect many of those will be 1090ES (but will see). Of course there is
some finite probability the wheels could come off the bus along the
way.

Darryl

Anyone seen this little jewel, seems there is a new report out from
the OIG that ADS-B will be far more expensive than the FAA has
projected... FAA Report Number AV-2011-002 issued 10-12-2010 *see
dot.gov//library-item/5415

Like up to 30 for GA aircraft and 600K for airliners....

How about these gems?

http://www.aviationtoday.com/webinars/2010-1118.html

I guess the price of the webinar is to keep the riff raff out.

I don't suppose they will be carrying TCAS or ADS-B any time soon
either.

Frank Whiteley

On Oct 22, 1:49*am, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Oct 21, 6:47*pm, ray conlon wrote:





On Oct 21, 2:30*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:

On Oct 21, 10:36*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:

PowerFLARM is supposed to have the capability to detect and display
Mode S 1090ES position data on its display. *How many aircraft
(Airliners, bizjets?) currently send out 1090ES data?

This is for the US, of course.

Kirk
66

Very very few right now - if you can find better information I'd love
to know. UPS and a few others are working on equipping faster than
most.

There is very little reason for biz jets to equip. UPS and some others
can argue for playing with this to look at scheduling, future in-trail
separation benefits etc. and UPS has been a leader in ADS-B technology
for a while -- their Louisville airport hub has ADS-B ground station
deployment early for this reason. Biz jets and others there are very
few argument for being an early user.

The FAA recently set the pretty draconian requirement for every ADS-B
data-out installation to be done via an STC, and specifically forbade
337/field approval. So even with full TSO approval of the WAAS GPS and
ADS-B data-out device they require each installation type (airframe +
equipment combo) to have an STC. This is supposed to go away
eventually, but who knows when. This single requirement will stifle
ADS-B data-out deployment in GA aircraft. This impediment to ADS-B
data-out deployment is a double whammy in the USA since you need ADS-B
data-out for TIS-B and ADS-R to work effectively (not that the
infrastructure to do those are widely deployed yet they will be over
the next few years). You've got to scratch you head with the whole FAA
handling of ADS-B.

The only think I think we can say with confidence is that by 2020 most
aircraft that today have transponders will have ADS-B data-out. I
expect many of those will be 1090ES (but will see). Of course there is
some finite probability the wheels could come off the bus along the
way.

Darryl

Anyone seen this little jewel, seems there is a new report out from
the OIG that ADS-B will be far more expensive than the FAA has
projected... FAA Report Number AV-2011-002 issued 10-12-2010 *see
dot.gov//library-item/5415

Like up to 30 for GA aircraft and 600K for airliners....

How about these gems?

http://www.aviationtoday.com/webinars/2010-1118.html

I guess the price of the webinar is to keep the riff raff out.

I don't suppose they will be carrying TCAS or ADS-B any time soon
either.

Frank Whiteley- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

No its like the WASS/GPS bird that got fried by a solar flair April
3rd. and they don't have the money to build a new replacement and
launch it into orbit..maybe the Chicoms will be nice enought to launch
it for us (for a price I am sure) since we don't have the booster to
put new birds in orbit... The FAA has been very quiet about the fact
they lost the WASS west of the Rockies....

On 10/21/2010 1:36 PM, kirk.stant wrote:
PowerFLARM is supposed to have the capability to detect and display
Mode S 1090ES position data on its display. How many aircraft
(Airliners, bizjets?) currently send out 1090ES data?

This is for the US, of course.

Kirk
66

If PowerFLARM was a full blown ADS-B IN/OUT system, you would be able to
see all transponder equipped aircraft using the TIS-B data transmitted
from your local ADS-B ground station. But......

--
Mike Schumann

On Oct 22, 6:55*am, Mike Schumann
wrote:
On 10/21/2010 1:36 PM, kirk.stant wrote:

PowerFLARM is supposed to have the capability to detect and display
Mode S 1090ES position data on its display. *How many aircraft
(Airliners, bizjets?) currently send out 1090ES data?

This is for the US, of course.

Kirk
66

If PowerFLARM was a full blown ADS-B IN/OUT system, you would be able to
see all transponder equipped aircraft using the TIS-B data transmitted
from your local ADS-B ground station. *But......

--
Mike Schumann

The question was about airliners and you will not need ADS-B data out
to see the 1090ES data out from airliners or many of the other
aircraft who (fly above FL180 and so) are all required to equip with
1090ES by 2020. PowerFLARM will do that just fine out of the box.

For one I am glad that Flarm and Butterfly are not stupid enough to go
down that rathole. If you want 1090ES data-out you add a Mode S
transponder. There are many reasons to separate the functions in two
boxes, starting with there is a large market worldwide already for
stand alone Mode S transponders and by decoupling the highly regulated
data-out functions from the data-in functions allows innovative
companies to develop innovative products--just like PowerFLARM. And in
most countries you do not need ADS-B data out to see other ADS-B data
out equipped aircraft - only in the USA. Vendors are going to optimize
products for a worldwide market? I seems Mike Schumann thinks the
answer to everything is more complexity... and this is yet another
awful suggestion. And if PowerFLARM had 1090ES data-out it would cost
thousands of dollars more plus likely require a certified GPS (the FAA
may have closed off any chance of not requiring this by forcing STC
approval-experimental gliders might still get away eith this?) that
currently costs thousands plus for the forseablefuture require an STC
approval for each glider type it is installed in

On 10/22/2010 10:30 AM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Oct 22, 6:55 am, Mike
wrote:
On 10/21/2010 1:36 PM, kirk.stant wrote:

PowerFLARM is supposed to have the capability to detect and display
Mode S 1090ES position data on its display. How many aircraft
(Airliners, bizjets?) currently send out 1090ES data?

This is for the US, of course.

Kirk
66

If PowerFLARM was a full blown ADS-B IN/OUT system, you would be able to
see all transponder equipped aircraft using the TIS-B data transmitted
from your local ADS-B ground station. But......

--
Mike Schumann

The question was about airliners and you will not need ADS-B data out
to see the 1090ES data out from airliners or many of the other
aircraft who (fly above FL180 and so) are all required to equip with
1090ES by 2020. PowerFLARM will do that just fine out of the box.

For one I am glad that Flarm and Butterfly are not stupid enough to go
down that rathole. If you want 1090ES data-out you add a Mode S
transponder. There are many reasons to separate the functions in two
boxes, starting with there is a large market worldwide already for
stand alone Mode S transponders and by decoupling the highly regulated
data-out functions from the data-in functions allows innovative
companies to develop innovative products--just like PowerFLARM. And in
most countries you do not need ADS-B data out to see other ADS-B data
out equipped aircraft - only in the USA. Vendors are going to optimize
products for a worldwide market? I seems Mike Schumann thinks the
answer to everything is more complexity... and this is yet another
awful suggestion. And if PowerFLARM had 1090ES data-out it would cost
thousands of dollars more plus likely require a certified GPS (the FAA
may have closed off any chance of not requiring this by forcing STC
approval-experimental gliders might still get away eith this?) that
currently costs thousands plus for the forseablefuture require an STC
approval for each glider type it is installed in

I think the answer to everything is more complexity????? Adding a 3rd
collision avoidance technology is more complexity. If I was running the
the FAA, we'd have a single ADS-B technology period. That's simplicity.

It seems that Darryl has consumed so much Koolaid that he's starting to
hallucinate.

--
Mike Schumann

On Oct 22, 7:34*am, Mike Schumann
wrote:
On 10/22/2010 10:30 AM, Darryl Ramm wrote:





On Oct 22, 6:55 am, Mike
wrote:
On 10/21/2010 1:36 PM, kirk.stant wrote:

PowerFLARM is supposed to have the capability to detect and display
Mode S 1090ES position data on its display. *How many aircraft
(Airliners, bizjets?) currently send out 1090ES data?

This is for the US, of course.

Kirk
66

If PowerFLARM was a full blown ADS-B IN/OUT system, you would be able to
see all transponder equipped aircraft using the TIS-B data transmitted
from your local ADS-B ground station. *But......

--
Mike Schumann

The question was about airliners and you will not need ADS-B data out
to see the 1090ES data out from airliners or many of the other
aircraft who (fly above FL180 and so) are all required to equip with
1090ES by 2020. PowerFLARM will do that just fine out of the box.

For one I am glad that Flarm and Butterfly are not stupid enough to go
down that rathole. If you want 1090ES data-out you add a Mode S
transponder. There are many reasons to separate the functions in two
boxes, starting with there is a large market worldwide already for
stand alone Mode S transponders and by decoupling the highly regulated
data-out functions from the data-in functions allows innovative
companies to develop innovative products--just like PowerFLARM. And in
most countries you do not need ADS-B data out to see other ADS-B data
out equipped aircraft - only in the USA. Vendors are going to optimize
products for a worldwide market? I seems Mike Schumann thinks the
answer to everything is more complexity... and this is yet another
awful suggestion. And if PowerFLARM had 1090ES data-out it would cost
thousands of dollars more plus likely require a certified GPS (the FAA
may have closed off any chance of not requiring this by forcing STC
approval-experimental gliders might still get away eith this?) that
currently costs thousands plus for the forseablefuture require an STC
approval for each glider type it is installed in

I think the answer to everything is more complexity????? *Adding a 3rd
collision avoidance technology is more complexity. *If I was running the
the FAA, we'd have a single ADS-B technology period. *That's simplicity..

It seems that Darryl has consumed so much Koolaid that he's starting to
hallucinate.

--
Mike Schumann

Mike I focus here on trying to point out what technologies will do and
what they won't and trying to help pilots navigate the reality of a
complex mess of technology. You seem to spend a lot of time dreaming
about what might be if only... Regardless of how impractical or
unlikely for practical market reasons they might be.

The collision concern for most glider pilots is I believe glider-
glider risk. The clear, well proven and logical choice for helping
reduce that risk is for pilots to deploy FLARM asap and stop dreaming
about ADS-B UAT vaporware for glider-glider collision avoidance. I
think folks here can look at the mess around ADS-B right now and
realize that the minimal complexity path to solve that problem is
PowerFLARM (which also provides PCAS and a future path to ADS-B). If
airliners are a concern then add a transponder (right now-it also is
simple, straightforward and just works).

Darryl