'They want to ban recreational flying...'

"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:26:18 -0700, "David Brooks"
wrote:

Is that 10db limit really a common restriction? I suppose they mean there
are local ordinances (nothing in the several CCR's I've read recently).
Small planes at 500ft probably exceed that bar.

Small planes at 500 feet over populated areas are already in violation
of the FARs unless taking off and landing.

It all depends on what the meaning of the word "congested" is. If I thought
of Duvall, WA as congested, I wouldn't have moved there.

-- David Brooks

For most communities, the answer is most likely no. Otherwise no one
would be able to mow their lawn as a lawn mower is listed at something
like ... 40 db or more.. No many low flying aircraft exceed the sound
of a lawn mower, unless they have a two blade prop, a big engine and
are just departing the active..

The 10 db is probably at a specified distance, similar to what a
neighbor would experience. Say 300 feet? While a lawnmower would in
time deafen its rider (I wear earmuffs), the noise level drops off
pretty fast. The same is true of chainsaws.

Because an aircraft overhead is often a direct line to the hearer,
with much less stuff to soak up the sound, it's apt to be very loud at
500 or even 1000 feet. I live under the traffic pattern of a
"tradeport" so I hear a lot of airplane noise, mostly heavy jets.

This is a university town, and therefore a loud-party town. The
residents often complain about student parties with the loud-hailers
going in the night, and the police department has a noise-meter
(whatever) which it will loan out to folks trying to make a case. Very
rarely do they succeed. I'll ask for more information about this if
anyone is interested.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

Well check this out. In Cape May NJ, where the people have been
fishing since the late 1600's, have let condos be developed by the
water. Now they complain of diesel fumes and fish odor.

Reminds me of the old joke:

A couple was getting hot and heavy in the back of a car. The girl gets
really excited and tells the guy "kiss me where it stinks!" So he drove her
to New Jersey.

The town is
now going to either deny/prohibit more development because this is
where the jobs are and won't let the fishing industry be dictated by
developers or owners.

In most parts of North America, boat building has moved inland. You
can always truck a boat to the water, but the waterfront land is too
valuable to be used for construction. More and more I even see
boatyards located inland. In Alton NH there's a yard on a hilltop deep
in the piney woods, where in winter I see scores of boats wrapped in
blue plastic, the blue all gone now of course.

The situation you describe is very common on the Maine coast. Most
communities try hard to accommodate shoreside yards and fishing docks,
because they are part of the reason that tourists come to town. The
problem of course is taxes. The state has to adopt some kind of
current-use taxation to favor the landowner, such as we have here in
New Hampshire with farm and forest land. Shorefront lots are worth
$100,000 and on up--pretty stiff for a lobster dock.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

On 09 Jul 2003 14:42:23 GMT, (Brandabc) wrote:

Hey... I think the group has a very valid argument. And I fly aerobatics!!


Student pilots in small airplanes practicing maneuvers are not loud.
Aerobatics as flown at air shows, don't have to be loud.

I think they would not accept an airplane at 2500 feet AGL doing
aerobatics.

I still link them to the lunatic fringe.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

PS- Motorcycles are mentioned also.

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 18:03:58 -0700, "David Brooks"
wrote:

"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:26:18 -0700, "David Brooks"
wrote:

Is that 10db limit really a common restriction? I suppose they mean there
are local ordinances (nothing in the several CCR's I've read recently).
Small planes at 500ft probably exceed that bar.

Small planes at 500 feet over populated areas are already in violation
of the FARs unless taking off and landing.

It all depends on what the meaning of the word "congested" is. If I thought
of Duvall, WA as congested, I wouldn't have moved there.

Doesn't really matter...congested or not the rule is a 1000 over and
2000 laterally.

I can go out and skim the tree tops (in sparsely populated areas), but
if I discover I just flew over some ones house out there, I violated
the FARs.

Don't fly low over towns, or rural subdivisions ... which would be
classed as congested areas, but that doesn't relieve the pilot from
not flying low over some ones home.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)


-- David Brooks

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:53:39 -0400, Cub Driver
wrote:


For most communities, the answer is most likely no. Otherwise no one
would be able to mow their lawn as a lawn mower is listed at something
like ... 40 db or more.. No many low flying aircraft exceed the sound
of a lawn mower, unless they have a two blade prop, a big engine and
are just departing the active..

The 10 db is probably at a specified distance, similar to what a
neighbor would experience. Say 300 feet? While a lawnmower would in
time deafen its rider (I wear earmuffs), the noise level drops off
pretty fast. The same is true of chainsaws.

Your neighbors lawn mower is going to be a lot louder than 10 db even
at the far side of a normal lot.

You have to stop and realize how little 10 db really is.


Because an aircraft overhead is often a direct line to the hearer,
with much less stuff to soak up the sound, it's apt to be very loud at
500 or even 1000 feet. I live under the traffic pattern of a
"tradeport" so I hear a lot of airplane noise, mostly heavy jets.

When I go over here on the way back to the airport I'm usually headed
down hill at close to 200 MPH. When I depart I'm usually still near
full power and not much above 1000 feet. It's certainly noticeable,
but no where near as loud as the neighbors lawn mowers over 300 feet
away...and through the trees. And their lawn mowers are no where near
as loud as some guy's Beagles about 5 houses to the West.

So, I try to be a good neighbor even if I have absolutely no sympathy
to the people near the airport. The VOR 14 to MBS starts near here so
when the big jets are flying that they go overhead. Even the old
DC-9s aren't all that loud and most modern day jets are not as loud as
a Bonanza with a 2 blade prop on take off.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)


This is a university town, and therefore a loud-party town. The
residents often complain about student parties with the loud-hailers
going in the night, and the police department has a noise-meter
(whatever) which it will loan out to folks trying to make a case. Very
rarely do they succeed. I'll ask for more information about this if
anyone is interested.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

full power and not much above 1000 feet. It's certainly noticeable,
but no where near as loud as the neighbors lawn mowers over 300 feet
away...and through the trees

I'm relieved to hear it (as it were!). I suppose we notice airplane
engines because they're out of the ordinary. Where I live, highway
noise is out of the ordinary, so motorcycles really bug
me--motorcycles being the one thing apart from sirens that I can hear
from Bay Road.

My houselot is 40 acres, and I can still hear my neighbor's lawnmower.
And of course I can hear the airplanes overhead. Since I am on the
water, of course I can hear all sorts of noise from there--even voices
in boats a mile away.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 14:11:26 -0700, "David Brooks"
wrote:

"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
.. .
Small planes at 500 feet over populated areas are already in violation
of the FARs unless taking off and landing.

It all depends on what the meaning of the word "congested" is. If I
thought
of Duvall, WA as congested, I wouldn't have moved there.

Doesn't really matter...congested or not the rule is a 1000 over and
2000 laterally.

Sorry, Roger, but I think you are in direct contradiction of 91.119 here. To
strip it down a little:

Wellll...not in direct cradiction...I just had the altitudes wrong for
other than congested.

Fly over some ones house hidden in the trees at tree top level and you
are still in violation...OTOH it's highly unlikely they will get your
number even if it's painted phosphorescent orange and illuminated.

(b) Over congested areas. ...1000, 2000.
(c) Over other than congested areas... 500 above the surface except
over...sparsely populated areas (where the "500ft from objects" rule works).

So there are three types of terrain: congested, not congested, and sparsely

If the town has the normal block and house spacing it's probably
considered congested. (over a small area):-))

populated. I assert my small town falls into the second group, although we
treat the nearby valley as a sparsely populated area.

I can go out and skim the tree tops (in sparsely populated areas), but
if I discover I just flew over some ones house out there, I violated
the FARs.

But you only need to get 500ft above them, according to your "(in sparsely
populated areas)". Common courtesy would suggest more, but not the
regulations.

Don't fly low over towns, or rural subdivisions ... which would be
classed as congested areas, but that doesn't relieve the pilot from
not flying low over some ones home.

As I implied with the Clintonian reference, it depends whether rural
subdivisions are defined as congested (is there a federal definition of the
word?). If they are, you have a point, but I think you still made a logical
slip in the first statement.

Nahhh...never happen :-))
Not long ago (within the last couple of years) one of the aviation
mags had an article on this topic as to what defines the categories.


Again, we're just arguing regs here. I try to stay 1000ft above my neighbors
no matter where they live.

It helps for good relations, but even being able to see, or hear a
small plane is too close for some.

Have you ever gone over to alt.activism.noise.polution? Now there you
will find some extreme views. There are even a few with justifiable
complaints. There are also some that fall into the lunatic fringe
that propose extreme measures for the elimination of noise..

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

-- David Brooks