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LINUX flight software



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 22nd 04, 04:42 AM
Bill Daniels
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Default LINUX flight software

Apparently, there are a few people out there working with Linux for gliding
applications. (Thanks for the links) Maybe it's a good thing.

I keep thinking that the potential user base in this space is so small that
if the PDA based apps split it, there won't be all that much profit to
support a commercial business - especially with a price war. So, we are
back to the hobbyist/enthusiast hacker who tends to like Linux/GPL anyway.
This person just wants some recognition for expertise and contribution made.
Gliding software might make a good resume entry.

Should someone take up the challenge, I'd like to see something along the
lines of an x86 based (lots of small, cheap, powerful, highly configurable,
12V boxes like those from Via) with the in-flight software developed on a
very small, hard real-time Linux kernel with an API like DIAPM RTAI. This
removes all the constraints of the PDA platform. (Somehow, I just don't
think a pocketable device designed for to-do and a contact lists is a great
platform for advanced soaring software, even if they are widely available.)

This approach offers the chance to do the entire panel in a gliding specific
"glass cockpit" with a screen size that's actually big enough to read at a
glance.

Bill Daniels

  #2  
Old February 22nd 04, 11:09 PM
André Somers
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Default

Bill Daniels wrote:

Apparently, there are a few people out there working with Linux for
gliding
applications. (Thanks for the links) Maybe it's a good thing.

Yes, there are. I am one of them.

I keep thinking that the potential user base in this space is so small
that if the PDA based apps split it, there won't be all that much profit
to
support a commercial business - especially with a price war. So, we are
back to the hobbyist/enthusiast hacker who tends to like Linux/GPL anyway.
This person just wants some recognition for expertise and contribution
made. Gliding software might make a good resume entry.

It does, actually. I am currently in contact with a potential employee who
seems to be very interested in my work. I'm not sure what you are
suggesting though, that I am undermining the commercial glidersoftware
business?

Should someone take up the challenge, I'd like to see something along the
lines of an x86 based (lots of small, cheap, powerful, highly
configurable, 12V boxes like those from Via) with the in-flight software
developed on a
very small, hard real-time Linux kernel with an API like DIAPM RTAI. This
removes all the constraints of the PDA platform. (Somehow, I just don't
think a pocketable device designed for to-do and a contact lists is a
great platform for advanced soaring software, even if they are widely
available.)

This approach offers the chance to do the entire panel in a gliding
specific "glass cockpit" with a screen size that's actually big enough to
read at a glance.

Problem is: these devices a
-too powerhungry
-too hard to install in a cockpit.

I am working on an application called Cumulus on the PDA platform. But, it's
easy to port to x86. In fact, most of the development work is done on x86.

André
projectleader of Cumulus

  #3  
Old February 22nd 04, 11:33 PM
Bill Daniels
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"André Somers" wrote in message
...
Bill Daniels wrote:

Apparently, there are a few people out there working with Linux for
gliding
applications. (Thanks for the links) Maybe it's a good thing.

Yes, there are. I am one of them.

I keep thinking that the potential user base in this space is so small
that if the PDA based apps split it, there won't be all that much profit
to
support a commercial business - especially with a price war. So, we are
back to the hobbyist/enthusiast hacker who tends to like Linux/GPL

anyway.
This person just wants some recognition for expertise and contribution
made. Gliding software might make a good resume entry.

It does, actually. I am currently in contact with a potential employee who
seems to be very interested in my work. I'm not sure what you are
suggesting though, that I am undermining the commercial glidersoftware
business?


Nope, just pointing out that it's likely to be a labor of love rather than a
serious effort to get rich. Nothing wrong with getting paid for your work.

Should someone take up the challenge, I'd like to see something along

the
lines of an x86 based (lots of small, cheap, powerful, highly
configurable, 12V boxes like those from Via) with the in-flight software
developed on a
very small, hard real-time Linux kernel with an API like DIAPM RTAI.

This
removes all the constraints of the PDA platform. (Somehow, I just don't
think a pocketable device designed for to-do and a contact lists is a
great platform for advanced soaring software, even if they are widely
available.)

This approach offers the chance to do the entire panel in a gliding
specific "glass cockpit" with a screen size that's actually big enough

to
read at a glance.

Problem is: these devices a
-too powerhungry
-too hard to install in a cockpit.

André
projectleader of Cumulus


Really? I see systems that pull less than 750ma. That would go for more
than 8 hours on a 7.5AH battery. Spend a little more for a Li-Ion polymer
battery and 10 - 15 hours are possible. The systems are about the same size
as a CD drive (5.5 inch form factor). I've got plenty of room for that and
the battery. As for the screen, I have dry-fitted a 15" screen over my
panel and I have room to spare. It just needs to hinge at the top so I can
flip it up out of the way if I need to see the old round gauges.


I am working on an application called Cumulus on the PDA platform. But,

it's
easy to port to x86. In fact, most of the development work is done on x86.


I read your web page and I'm really impressed. Waaay cool!

Bill Daniels

  #4  
Old February 23rd 04, 12:11 PM
André Somers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Bill Daniels wrote:

I'm not sure what you are
suggesting though, that I am undermining the commercial glidersoftware
business?

Nope, just pointing out that it's likely to be a labor of love rather than
a
serious effort to get rich. Nothing wrong with getting paid for your
work.

I didn't start this project to get rich. I like OpenSource. That concept has
allready made Cumulus far better than I had ever been able to make myself,
because we now have a number of contributors and we are free to use code
from other GPL projects. Cumulus will always remain OpenSource. So yes, It
is a labor of love. Nothing wrong with that either, is there?

Problem is: these devices a
-too powerhungry
-too hard to install in a cockpit.

Really? I see systems that pull less than 750ma. That would go for more
than 8 hours on a 7.5AH battery. Spend a little more for a Li-Ion polymer
battery and 10 - 15 hours are possible. The systems are about the same
size
as a CD drive (5.5 inch form factor). I've got plenty of room for that
and
the battery. As for the screen, I have dry-fitted a 15" screen over my
panel and I have room to spare. It just needs to hinge at the top so I
can flip it up out of the way if I need to see the old round gauges.

And how much power does your (touch) screen draw? I would be really
interested to see such a setup, and I must say I find the concept
intreaging. Maybe you can fit, say, a 10" screen in your pannel. That would
allready be a huge improvement over a PDA screen, and I must say that the
additional CPU power of an x86-based system would give some *very* nice
options indeed...

I am working on an application called Cumulus on the PDA platform. But,

it's
easy to port to x86. In fact, most of the development work is done on
x86.


I read your web page and I'm really impressed. Waaay cool!

Thanks. The webpage is a bit outdated, and the screenshots are pretty old...
Stuff looks better now, and 1.2 will be a lot cooler feature-wise :-)

André
  #5  
Old February 23rd 04, 04:30 PM
Bill Daniels
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"André Somers" wrote in message
...
And how much power does your (touch) screen draw? I would be really
interested to see such a setup, and I must say I find the concept
intreaging. Maybe you can fit, say, a 10" screen in your pannel. That

would
allready be a huge improvement over a PDA screen, and I must say that the
additional CPU power of an x86-based system would give some *very* nice
options indeed...

André


Some of these screens draw about 650ma @ 12V with the brightness all the way
up. I don't know if this is a good number or if there are better screens.
A narrow viewing angle would reduce the demands on the backlight.

What are your thoughts on Real-Time Linux for this application?

Bill Daniels


  #6  
Old February 23rd 04, 07:50 PM
André Somers
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Posts: n/a
Default

Bill Daniels wrote:


"André Somers" wrote in message
...
And how much power does your (touch) screen draw? I would be really
interested to see such a setup, and I must say I find the concept
intreaging. Maybe you can fit, say, a 10" screen in your pannel. That

would
allready be a huge improvement over a PDA screen, and I must say that the
additional CPU power of an x86-based system would give some *very* nice
options indeed...

André


Some of these screens draw about 650ma @ 12V with the brightness all the
way
up. I don't know if this is a good number or if there are better screens.
A narrow viewing angle would reduce the demands on the backlight.

What are your thoughts on Real-Time Linux for this application?

I guess that depends on what you want to do with it. For one, you can't use
it for primairy instruments, at least not here. The greatest power of using
a computer is where it is used now too: navigational aid and flightcomputer
functions. For that, you don't really need a RT system IMHO.

André

  #7  
Old February 23rd 04, 08:39 PM
Bill Daniels
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"André Somers" wrote in message
...

What are your thoughts on Real-Time Linux for this application?


I guess that depends on what you want to do with it. For one, you can't

use
it for primairy instruments, at least not here. The greatest power of

using
a computer is where it is used now too: navigational aid and

flightcomputer
functions. For that, you don't really need a RT system IMHO.

André


Well, you probably couldn't CERTIFY a computer display for the primary
instruments (without a lot of money) but by displaying the primary
instrument data on the computer screen, all the flight data would be in one
place and easy to read. Keep the old primary instruments in the panel to
keep things legal and just hinge the thin computer screen over them so that
if you need to peek just lift the screen.

Bill Daniels

  #8  
Old February 25th 04, 09:12 AM
André Somers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Bill Daniels wrote:


"André Somers" wrote in message
...

What are your thoughts on Real-Time Linux for this application?


I guess that depends on what you want to do with it. For one, you can't

use
it for primairy instruments, at least not here. The greatest power of

using
a computer is where it is used now too: navigational aid and

flightcomputer
functions. For that, you don't really need a RT system IMHO.

André


Well, you probably couldn't CERTIFY a computer display for the primary
instruments (without a lot of money) but by displaying the primary
instrument data on the computer screen, all the flight data would be in
one
place and easy to read. Keep the old primary instruments in the panel to
keep things legal and just hinge the thin computer screen over them so
that if you need to peek just lift the screen.

Apart from the legal aspects, I don't really see many advantages to making
the primairy instruments electronic (or obscuring them with a screen,wich
is illegal here I think). The "normal" instruments are very easy to
interpret (it has been shown that round dials are by far the easiest to
comprehend for the human brain: judging angles is easier than judging a
distance or reading and interpretting a figure.) That doesn't say that you
couldn't use the data also on the screen, but I would not make it primairy.
An electronic system *is* more likely to fail, if only due to poor battery
conditions.
Having said that, I haven't found a useable x86 system yet. Maybe I'm
looking in the wrong place, but a system like a VIA EPIA board still takes
about 30W. Using a 12V battery, that means 2,5A. That's a heavy load; my
battery would last maybe two, max three hours. And that is without a
screen...

André

  #9  
Old February 25th 04, 12:08 PM
Robert Ehrlich
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

André Somers wrote:
...
The "normal" instruments are very easy to
interpret (it has been shown that round dials are by far the easiest to
comprehend for the human brain: judging angles is easier than judging a
distance or reading and interpretting a figure.)
...


Not obviuous for me. Head up displays use rather vertical scales with
a moving index. I remember some Mercedes cars about 40 years ago had
also a speed indicator of this type, a colored bar filling less or more
of a vertical slot with a scale on the border. The color changed when
your speed was above the max allowed inside towns. At that time it was
purely mechanical, just a colored disc behind the slot rotating like
the usual needle around a pivot at the bottom of the slot, with a boundary
that was a spiral rather than a circle. Such an airspeed indicator in
a saiplane would probably easier to comprehend than some round dials
with more than one turn and 2 different values under the needle.
However the limitation of space to that of a standard instrument
would not allow it.
  #10  
Old February 25th 04, 02:29 PM
Bert Willing
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

So how comes that these linear indicators can't be found anymore ? All car
manufacturers on this planet ignoring human perception ?
I also had something like this on a Citroën GS...

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Robert Ehrlich" a écrit dans le message de
...
André Somers wrote:
...
The "normal" instruments are very easy to
interpret (it has been shown that round dials are by far the easiest to
comprehend for the human brain: judging angles is easier than judging a
distance or reading and interpretting a figure.)
...


Not obviuous for me. Head up displays use rather vertical scales with
a moving index. I remember some Mercedes cars about 40 years ago had
also a speed indicator of this type, a colored bar filling less or more
of a vertical slot with a scale on the border. The color changed when
your speed was above the max allowed inside towns. At that time it was
purely mechanical, just a colored disc behind the slot rotating like
the usual needle around a pivot at the bottom of the slot, with a boundary
that was a spiral rather than a circle. Such an airspeed indicator in
a saiplane would probably easier to comprehend than some round dials
with more than one turn and 2 different values under the needle.
However the limitation of space to that of a standard instrument
would not allow it.



 




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