A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » General Aviation
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

JFK Jr.'s mean ol wife



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old July 11th 03, 07:00 AM
skygodtj
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Marten Kemp wrote:

Jonathan Birge wrote:

"Marten Kemp" wrote in message
...
Martin, nobody likes to be outclassed by somebody who can take criticism

so
honorably. In fact, I find your integrity offensive. It's just selfish

of
you, to deny me my righteous flaming. This is Usenet, dammit! I was

pretty
rude. Come on! Let me have it! Don't leave me down here in the gutter

alone.

-Jonathan

Okay, Johnny-boy.

*Read my farking sig* the next time and at
least get my name right, you jerk.

Feel better now? {grin}


Much, thank you! Sorry about screwing up your name. That was unintentional.


You're welcome. It happens a lot, actually.

-- Marten Kemp


awwww... group hug.... theres a lotta love in this thread...

teege
-------------------------------------------------------
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
Ads
  #62  
Old July 11th 03, 07:23 AM
Fred B
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Thanks, Cap. That was a good discussion.

"Captain Wubba" wrote in message
om...
While I agree with the need to look at this kind of data in multiple
ways, I think the 'per departure' numbers may be very misleading.
First off, there are plenty of GA planes that make literally hundreds
of departures per week. I see training planes at my airport do a dozen
touch-and-goes an hour, and these planes often fly 30-40 hours a week
in the summer. Does that count as a 'departure'? If so, then that
would dramatically reduce the 'per departure' GA accident rate. If
not, then why count the automoble 'departure' that consists of a 1
mile drive to the video store? A more 'meaningful' comparison would be
to compare the fatalities in different groupings of activity. While
this is necessarily somewhat arbitrary, I think a reasonable question
would be "If I will be travelling more than 100 miles on this trip,
and going between two cities, what is the liklihood that I will arrive
safely in a GA plane vs. a car?" After all, airplanes and cars have
very different mission profiles on short trips. One can hardly compare
a 2 mile trip in a car to a 750 mile hard-IFR cross country. Neither
can one compare a T&G with an instructor aboard to a 250 mile car trip
in a driving blizzard. The comparison would be meaningless.

In this, I think GA will come out better than one might think. I
remember reading something from AAA a couple years ago basically
saying that long-distance driving (i.e. or more than two hours I
believe) was dramatically more dangerous than local driving. Which is
quite logical. I recently returned (driving) from a 150 mile trip, and
saw at least 10 crosses by the sides of the highway. I think that the
comparison between this kind of driving and GA flying a similar
distance will yield a reasonably close rate of fatality.

In the end, one thing we know for certain is that the vast majority of
aircraft fatalities are directly attributable to pilot error. I
randomly looked at 100 NTSB fatal-accident reports the other day (slow
day). 91% of these crashes were clearly pilot error. And, as the Nall
Report reiterates every year, something like 75% of all aircraft
accidents are related to just one of three causes (VFR into IMC,
low-level maneauvering [stall-spins], and fuel mismanagement. This
isn't complex stuff. This is trivially easy to prevent. All it takes
is training and discipline.

Personally, I think it is safer to fly GA with a 'professional'
quality pilot than it is to drive a similar distance (assuming a cross
country). If 90% of airplane fatalities can be attributed to pilots
acting stupid, then it stands to reason that if you only fly with
pilots who have the training and discipoline to *not* act the fool,
then you are much more likely to arrive safely than if you were flying
with the 'average' pilots. If GA has a reputation for being dangerous,
there is nobody to blame but ourselves. Honestly...is there *ever* an
excuse for running out of gas? Is there ever an excuse for
intentionally flying into clouds when you are not qualified or
prepared? But pilots do it all the time. And kill people.

I'd feel much safer in the back of a 182 travelling 200 miles, being
piloted by a pilot who never busts minima, who never lands with less
than hour of gas, and who never shows off than I would even driving my
own car that 200 miles. My odds of getting hit by a drunk driver, or
getting clipped by a truck that can't see me, or getting distracted
for that one second and not seeing the brake lights ahead of me seem
vastly higher in the car than in the plane.

Cheers

Cap



  #63  
Old July 12th 03, 05:33 PM
Ralph Nesbitt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Fred B" wrote in message
. ..
Thanks, Cap. That was a good discussion.

Prehaps to get a better grasp of GA Safety it would be necessary to
evaluate/compare sub-catagories of GA incidents into professional, semi-
professional, & recreational pilot groups.

For purpose of discussion the "Professional Group" would include
instructors, others who fly for pay. The semi-professional group are those
that fly themselves as an adjunt to their professional activities on a
regular basis . The recreation group being those who fly for recreation
only.
Ralph Nesbitt
Professional FD/CFR/ARFF Type

"Captain Wubba" wrote in message
om...
While I agree with the need to look at this kind of data in multiple
ways, I think the 'per departure' numbers may be very misleading.
First off, there are plenty of GA planes that make literally hundreds
of departures per week. I see training planes at my airport do a dozen
touch-and-goes an hour, and these planes often fly 30-40 hours a week
in the summer. Does that count as a 'departure'? If so, then that
would dramatically reduce the 'per departure' GA accident rate. If
not, then why count the automoble 'departure' that consists of a 1
mile drive to the video store? A more 'meaningful' comparison would be
to compare the fatalities in different groupings of activity. While
this is necessarily somewhat arbitrary, I think a reasonable question
would be "If I will be travelling more than 100 miles on this trip,
and going between two cities, what is the liklihood that I will arrive
safely in a GA plane vs. a car?" After all, airplanes and cars have
very different mission profiles on short trips. One can hardly compare
a 2 mile trip in a car to a 750 mile hard-IFR cross country. Neither
can one compare a T&G with an instructor aboard to a 250 mile car trip
in a driving blizzard. The comparison would be meaningless.

In this, I think GA will come out better than one might think. I
remember reading something from AAA a couple years ago basically
saying that long-distance driving (i.e. or more than two hours I
believe) was dramatically more dangerous than local driving. Which is
quite logical. I recently returned (driving) from a 150 mile trip, and
saw at least 10 crosses by the sides of the highway. I think that the
comparison between this kind of driving and GA flying a similar
distance will yield a reasonably close rate of fatality.

In the end, one thing we know for certain is that the vast majority of
aircraft fatalities are directly attributable to pilot error. I
randomly looked at 100 NTSB fatal-accident reports the other day (slow
day). 91% of these crashes were clearly pilot error. And, as the Nall
Report reiterates every year, something like 75% of all aircraft
accidents are related to just one of three causes (VFR into IMC,
low-level maneauvering [stall-spins], and fuel mismanagement. This
isn't complex stuff. This is trivially easy to prevent. All it takes
is training and discipline.

Personally, I think it is safer to fly GA with a 'professional'
quality pilot than it is to drive a similar distance (assuming a cross
country). If 90% of airplane fatalities can be attributed to pilots
acting stupid, then it stands to reason that if you only fly with
pilots who have the training and discipoline to *not* act the fool,
then you are much more likely to arrive safely than if you were flying
with the 'average' pilots. If GA has a reputation for being dangerous,
there is nobody to blame but ourselves. Honestly...is there *ever* an
excuse for running out of gas? Is there ever an excuse for
intentionally flying into clouds when you are not qualified or
prepared? But pilots do it all the time. And kill people.

I'd feel much safer in the back of a 182 travelling 200 miles, being
piloted by a pilot who never busts minima, who never lands with less
than hour of gas, and who never shows off than I would even driving my
own car that 200 miles. My odds of getting hit by a drunk driver, or
getting clipped by a truck that can't see me, or getting distracted
for that one second and not seeing the brake lights ahead of me seem
vastly higher in the car than in the plane.

Cheers

Cap





  #64  
Old July 15th 03, 12:51 PM
Kevin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jul 2003 23:33:00 -0500, "Highfllyer" wrote:


He got in trouble because he was flying using tried and proven VFR
techniques on a legally VFR night when VFR techniques would not work. That
can happen ANYTIME at night, even on a clear night. It is all a matter of
visual reference.



It can happen in the daytime also. It's happened to me turning downwind to
base over water with limited (although legal VFR) visibility and no visual
references in my field of view.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)


He was a bad pilot. Just because you can buy it, doesn't mean you can
fly it.

PP SEL

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
REAL NAVY LIFE B.C. Mallam Naval Aviation 2 February 10th 05 01:20 AM
'Room Temperature' Anthony Home Built 11 August 23rd 04 07:36 PM
Pat Tillman's wife is available Jim Military Aviation 1 April 27th 04 07:12 PM
WW 2 Ace, Richard Bongs, wife dies Fitzair4 Home Built 2 October 3rd 03 05:02 AM
Air Force wife, kids found dead Otis Willie Military Aviation 0 July 19th 03 04:36 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2018 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.