Helicopters for glider pilots

On 6/25/07 7:43 PM, in article ,
"Bullwinkle" wrote:

On 6/25/07 7:01 PM, in article
, "flying_monkey"
wrote:

Yes, the R-22 is certainly "twitchy." But I've been told that if one
can fly that, there's no helicopter that they won't be able to
handle. Or maybe one should learn on something "easier" and then be
basically barred from flying the most common helo in the world. Maybe
it's like taildraggers. If you learn from scratch in one, it's no big
deal. By the time you can fly the airplane and land it, you can
handle that or probably most any taildragger. But if you learn in a
tri-gear airplane, you're basically barred from more than half of the
Sport Pilot capable airplanes.

My first flight with Chris Townsend was an introductory flight
lesson. It had flight instruction in it, but there was also a lot of
demonstration aspects to it, like confined area landing and takeoff,
and one-skid landings to drop off a passenger. When it came time to
demonstrate an autorotation, and he had me close the throttle at about
800 feet, I was nervous, as I've watched many of those from the ground
in everything from R-22s to UH-1s. He brought that little helo to a
full stop on the ground without ever touching the throttle, and made
it seem easy. I asked him, "If I were to learn to fly this helo from
you all the way to my license, would I be allowed to do autos to
touchdown?" He replied: "I'm sure not going to even solo you in this
until you can do autos to touchdown time after time." I have no doubt
he would have been able to teach that, even though I don't think
there's a single operator in the US which does touchdown autos in
R-22s.

Ed


As a current CFIG, and a 70's era Army Huey (dustoff) pilot, in my humble
opinion helicopters are indeed harder to learn. The control touch is simply
much more sensitive in all axes than in gliders.

Now, to fly either one well is probably equally challenging.

Learning to hover and learning to tow are remarkably similar in terms of the
skill set required to succeed.

You know how a new glider student on tow slips a little out of position,
then overcorrects and ends up out of position on the other side, then
overcorrects a little more, and ends up even farther out of position on the
first side, etc? Ever increasing oscillations on the tow rope until the CFIG
takes over, recovers, and lets the student try again?

The exact same oscillating cycle occurs when a new student first tries to
hover a helicopter. And the exact same correction by the CFI-H.

I can explain this a lot better, but I have to use my hands, and they seem
to be on a keyboard right now.

There is a video on the internet somewhere (perhaps 5Z will point it out,
because he showed it to me?) that shows a guy who tries to make his first
flight ever in a Hughes 269/300, SOLO. Gets into the oscillation, and since
there is no CFI-H to save his bacon, he wrecks his new helicopter after
about 20 seconds (or less) of total flight time.

JMHO,
Bullwinkle

OK, found it myself.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...=helicopter++c
rash&total=2352&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&p lindex=2

Bullwinkle

"Andy" wrote in message
ups.com...

With zero helicopter time I had the opportunity to fly a Bell 47. In
less that 40 minutes of flight and perhaps 20 minutes on the controls,
I had done takeoff, hover, hover turns, approaches and landings. The
thing I found most difficult was keeping the engine in the 200rpm
power band with changes in collective.

I suspect that any glider pilot used to flying with a light touch on
the stick would have a similar experience.


I had a similar experience in a Hughes 300. Flying in normal flight was a
no brainer, while the hover, flying backwards, sideways and landing could be
accomplished reasonably easily - certainly within 30 mins. Yes the controls
are very sensitive, but as I observed at the time, I was used to flying and
was reasonably relaxed handling the controls. I've noticed when instructing
in gliders that people who are anxious often have difficulty controlling the
glider with sufficient sensitivity.

As I glider pilot I thought it essential that I was shown an autorotation
and power off landing. That was fun.

Stephen

flying_monkey wrote:
I've been flying radio control helicopters for about twenty years. From
what I've heard on-line, most people proficient in RC hells learn the hover
in less than an hour.

Wow, that sounds like a good way to learn the real thing. But how
much does it cost in broken equipment to learn to fly an RC heli? And
how many hours?

Ed

Get the (RC) simulator - it is a lot cheaper. Don't ask how I know...

Not trolling.

Very similar. Over controlling at first, then the hover starts getting
easier as muscle memory builds. When I started RC choppers, we didn't have
simulators. I could not imagine starting from scratch again without them.

Choppers have really dropped in price. Prices are now very reasonable for
spares. With patience and diligence, it is very doable to learn how to fly
without any major, high cost wrecks.


"Nyal Williams" wrote in message
...
Must be about like moving from air guitar to rock guitar
-- and about as significant!

It's a troll; flame on.

At 20:18 25 June 2007, Flying_Monkey wrote:

I've been flying radio control helicopters for about
twenty years. From
what I've heard on-line, most people proficient in
RC hells learn the hover
in less than an hour.

Wow, that sounds like a good way to learn the real
thing. But how
much does it cost in broken equipment to learn to fly
an RC heli? And
how many hours?

Ed

I agree with Andy 100%. A good glider pilot should
be able to handle the Bell 47 in a short time. My
experience was similar to Andy's. The Bell is fun,
but the Schweizer 300 was much more 'spirited', like
a sports car.

The 'helicopter is hard to fly' rumor is perpetuated
by Spam-can Cessna drivers who are used to doing 50
pound curls on the yoke for landing, and leaving their
feet safely on the cockpit floor.

Helicopter pilots prefer this rumor:

'Fixed wing pilots have an intense interest in aviation...They're
just afraid to try it.'

BC


At 13:24 25 June 2007, Andy wrote:
On Jun 21, 7:53 pm, 'Bill Daniels' wrote:
Now a Bell 47 helicopter, THAT is hard to fly.

With zero helicopter time I had the opportunity to
fly a Bell 47. In
less that 40 minutes of flight and perhaps 20 minutes
on the controls,
I had done takeoff, hover, hover turns, approaches
and landings. The
thing I found most difficult was keeping the engine
in the 200rpm
power band with changes in collective.

I suspect that any glider pilot used to flying with
a light touch on
the stick would have a similar experience.

Isn't the difficulty of flying helicopters a myth perpetuated
by
helicopter pilots?

Andy

I like that old military definition of a helicopter . . .

"A mass of fatigued metal, rotating around an oil leak."

bumper

"Bob C" wrote in message
...
I agree with Andy 100%. A good glider pilot should
be able to handle the Bell 47 in a short time. My
experience was similar to Andy's. The Bell is fun,
but the Schweizer 300 was much more 'spirited', like
a sports car.

The 'helicopter is hard to fly' rumor is perpetuated
by Spam-can Cessna drivers who are used to doing 50
pound curls on the yoke for landing, and leaving their
feet safely on the cockpit floor.

Helicopter pilots prefer this rumor:

'Fixed wing pilots have an intense interest in aviation...They're
just afraid to try it.'

BC


At 13:24 25 June 2007, Andy wrote:
On Jun 21, 7:53 pm, 'Bill Daniels' wrote:
Now a Bell 47 helicopter, THAT is hard to fly.

With zero helicopter time I had the opportunity to
fly a Bell 47. In
less that 40 minutes of flight and perhaps 20 minutes
on the controls,
I had done takeoff, hover, hover turns, approaches
and landings. The
thing I found most difficult was keeping the engine
in the 200rpm
power band with changes in collective.

I suspect that any glider pilot used to flying with
a light touch on
the stick would have a similar experience.

Isn't the difficulty of flying helicopters a myth perpetuated
by
helicopter pilots?

Andy

Helicopters don't fly.

They're just so ugly the Earth repels them.

bumper writes
I like that old military definition of a helicopter . . .

"A mass of fatigued metal, rotating around an oil leak."

bumper

Bob C wrote:
I agree with Andy 100%. A good glider pilot should
be able to handle the Bell 47 in a short time. My
experience was similar to Andy's. The Bell is fun,
but the Schweizer 300 was much more 'spirited', like
a sports car.

The 'helicopter is hard to fly' rumor is perpetuated
by Spam-can Cessna drivers who are used to doing 50
pound curls on the yoke for landing,

You have to experience them trying this in a (Chose your own docile trainer
glider type)from the back seat. I have on at one occasion run out of right arm
power and had to use both hands to get the stick forward...

Guy in the front was an experienced power instructor executing a 'normal' flare.

Note to self - Add item to list of briefing points when doing an intro for power
pilots.

When I was getting certified in a Schweizer 300, I was curious about the
glide ratio during an autorotation. Accourding to the POH, the glide ratio
calculates out to something like 2.5 to one. I made up a spreadsheet, using
the airspeed and headwind. Practicing autorotations, I could never achieve
the calculated glide ratio. I took up an instructor up and he tried it, but
could not achieve it. We got about 1.75 to one, as I recall.

As the end of my testing, I concluded that helicopters are not very good
gliders. However, there is one similarity. One hand controls the descent
rate, and the spoilers in the glider are similar to the collective in the
helicopter.

I had trouble learning to hover properly in a helicopter. I was
overcontrolling. Finally, as I was driving over to the airfield to abuse
myself once again, I got something in my eye. When I got to the field, it
was still there. It hurt enough that I was almost in tears. I thought
about cancelling my instruction - but I had no time for another week, so
decided to go ahead. We went out to the practice field and I grabbed the
cyclic and collective as I usually did. My main concern was the pain in my
eye. Soon, the instructor said "your aircraft". The helicopter did not
move and hovered beautifully. After about 20 seconds, I figured the
instructor was continuing to fly it and I looked over and his hands were off
the controls. I was not consciously flying the helicopter, but it remained
fixed in space. From that point on, flying the helicopter was easy. I had
stopped thinking about the flying and controlled it by the sub-conscious.
Sort of like mind control.

Autorotations through the private license are not practiced power off. We
practiced them regularly and reduce the power to practice them, but then
pull in the power at about 3 feet. A full power off autorotation can damage
the helicopter - unless you are right on. My instructor did it once with
me - but only into a headwind.

Landing on a tall building in the middle of the night in a helicopter is
something that must be experienced to be appreciated.

Colin

KEEP THE BIG NUT TIGHT!!
Chuck
At 14:30 27 June 2007, Colin Lamb wrote:
When I was getting certified in a Schweizer 300, I
was curious about
the
glide ratio during an autorotation. Accourding to
the POH, the glide
ratio
calculates out to something like 2.5 to one. I made
up a spreadsheet,
using
the airspeed and headwind. Practicing autorotations,
I could never
achieve
the calculated glide ratio. I took up an instructor
up and he tried it, but
could not achieve it. We got about 1.75 to one, as
I recall.

As the end of my testing, I concluded that helicopters
are not very good
gliders. However, there is one similarity. One hand
controls the
descent
rate, and the spoilers in the glider are similar to
the collective in the
helicopter.

I had trouble learning to hover properly in a helicopter.
I was
overcontrolling. Finally, as I was driving over to
the airfield to abuse
myself once again, I got something in my eye. When
I got to the field,
it
was still there. It hurt enough that I was almost
in tears. I thought
about cancelling my instruction - but I had no time
for another week,
so
decided to go ahead. We went out to the practice field
and I grabbed
the
cyclic and collective as I usually did. My main concern
was the pain in
my
eye. Soon, the instructor said 'your aircraft'. The
helicopter did not
move and hovered beautifully. After about 20 seconds,
I figured the
instructor was continuing to fly it and I looked over
and his hands were
off
the controls. I was not consciously flying the helicopter,
but it
remained
fixed in space. From that point on, flying the helicopter
was easy. I
had
stopped thinking about the flying and controlled it
by the sub-conscious.
Sort of like mind control.

Autorotations through the private license are not practiced
power off.
We
practiced them regularly and reduce the power to practice
them, but
then
pull in the power at about 3 feet. A full power off
autorotation can
damage
the helicopter - unless you are right on. My instructor
did it once with
me - but only into a headwind.

Landing on a tall building in the middle of the night
in a helicopter is
something that must be experienced to be appreciated.

Colin