This year's annual

"A Lieberma" wrote in message
. 18...
"RST Engineering" wrote in
:

hear you bitching in here how much your annual cost you until you can
tell me how much of the owner assisted annual you did. So far as I
can see, about 75-80% of what you've had "done" could have been done
yourself.

Now, you got me curious, on all the problems listed, other then the oil
change, what exactly could I have legally done?

snip
Also, the time it takes to do an annual amazes me, which would mean with
my
work schedule the plane would be down longer then it be.

snip

Allen

Depending on the airplane, a thorough annual on a fixed gear single is
probably a one day job, including several things that are more maintenance
related than inspection related...

The thing I find with the IA's I've used is that their day is full of
interruptions. I'd say my IA is only doing something that is tangibly
productive like turning wrenches or inspecting something for 50% of the time
he's in his shop. All of the phone calls, drop in customers, FedEX
deliveries, potty breaks, etc. really cut into his time.

In addition, my experience is that most IA's and A&P's have multiple jobs
going at one time. A field engine rebuild in this corner. An elevator
patch in another corner. An inspection in another corner, and the other
corner is being used to install an STC on someone's airplane. And then
someone shows up with a broken airplane and needs to go on an important trip
tomorrow.

All of this adds up to a 2 week annual on a C-172 or a Cherokee.

KB

"Kyle Boatright" wrote in
:

Depending on the airplane, a thorough annual on a fixed gear single is
probably a one day job, including several things that are more
maintenance related than inspection related...

The thing I find with the IA's I've used is that their day is full of
interruptions. I'd say my IA is only doing something that is
tangibly productive like turning wrenches or inspecting something for
50% of the time he's in his shop. All of the phone calls, drop in
customers, FedEX deliveries, potty breaks, etc. really cut into his
time.

I am surely not in a job to get uninterrupted time on an assignment
(computer specialist), I sure don't expect the same from my A&P!!!

I call it multitasking, if I didn't then people would scream to high
heaven if I didn't get to their problems quickly. Lower priority
problems get put aside for mission essentional problems. Annual sure is
a lower priority then somebody who came in and had a problem that
couldn't get them home.

In addition, my experience is that most IA's and A&P's have multiple
jobs going at one time. A field engine rebuild in this corner. An
elevator patch in another corner. An inspection in another corner, and
the other corner is being used to install an STC on someone's
airplane. And then someone shows up with a broken airplane and needs
to go on an important trip tomorrow.

I would gladly give up my time for somebody who needs out by tomorrow. I
sure would hope the same would be done in return should I be in podunct
airport and something goes amiss on my airplane.

Surely you jest in what you are saying above????

All of this adds up to a 2 week annual on a C-172 or a Cherokee.

It would have been three days had I not had problems, or parts ordered,
and IMHO that is more then reasonable, considering the business my A&P
has going through his hangar doors.

Personally, you need to lighten up on your A&P or find another one.

This person (me) will never complain should I have to take back seat to
an emergency repair when my plane is sitting in the comforts of my home
airport for an annual.

Allen

"A Lieberma" wrote in message
. 18...
"Kyle Boatright" wrote in
:

Depending on the airplane, a thorough annual on a fixed gear single is
probably a one day job, including several things that are more
maintenance related than inspection related...

The thing I find with the IA's I've used is that their day is full of
interruptions. I'd say my IA is only doing something that is
tangibly productive like turning wrenches or inspecting something for
50% of the time he's in his shop. All of the phone calls, drop in
customers, FedEX deliveries, potty breaks, etc. really cut into his
time.

I am surely not in a job to get uninterrupted time on an assignment
(computer specialist), I sure don't expect the same from my A&P!!!

I call it multitasking, if I didn't then people would scream to high
heaven if I didn't get to their problems quickly. Lower priority
problems get put aside for mission essentional problems. Annual sure is
a lower priority then somebody who came in and had a problem that
couldn't get them home.

In addition, my experience is that most IA's and A&P's have multiple
jobs going at one time. A field engine rebuild in this corner. An
elevator patch in another corner. An inspection in another corner, and
the other corner is being used to install an STC on someone's
airplane. And then someone shows up with a broken airplane and needs
to go on an important trip tomorrow.

I would gladly give up my time for somebody who needs out by tomorrow. I
sure would hope the same would be done in return should I be in podunct
airport and something goes amiss on my airplane.

Surely you jest in what you are saying above????

Jest? Naah. Not even complaining. Those are just the realities.


All of this adds up to a 2 week annual on a C-172 or a Cherokee.

It would have been three days had I not had problems, or parts ordered,
and IMHO that is more then reasonable, considering the business my A&P
has going through his hangar doors.

Personally, you need to lighten up on your A&P or find another one.

Again, I'm not complaining at all. I'm just pointing out the nature of the
business.

In fact, I hadn't seen or spoken to my IA in a while so I called and took
him to lunch last week. Since I do the inspections and maintenance on my
RV-6, he only gets an hour or so of business from me a year. And maybe a
couple of free lunches. ;-) I do pay him to time the mag, run a
compression test, and eyeball everything firewall forward once a year.


This person (me) will never complain should I have to take back seat to
an emergency repair when my plane is sitting in the comforts of my home
airport for an annual.

Allen

KB

There is a very old expression "Work expands to fill the time available for
its completion"
The more time you allow your maintenance facilities, the longer they will
take, that's the nature of us humans.
We schedule all maintenance on a start date and finish date basis.
We provide a written itemized list of all work to be performed before
scheduling the time in the shop, and we make sure that they have the parts
to hand before work starts.
If a facility exceeds the finish date, they know about it in no uncertain
terms.
It is quite ridiculous to allow any vendor in any business to be less than
efficient, you are doing them a disservice by aiding and abetting the
stagnation of their business.
Organize properly what service you are buying, ensure the vendor knows what
is expected and you unscheduled down time will be at a minimum.

I am putting my fire proof coveralls on :-)

--
Roy
Piper Archer N5804F

"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
. ..


"A Lieberma" wrote in message
. 18...
"Kyle Boatright" wrote in
:

Depending on the airplane, a thorough annual on a fixed gear single is
probably a one day job, including several things that are more
maintenance related than inspection related...

The thing I find with the IA's I've used is that their day is full of
interruptions. I'd say my IA is only doing something that is
tangibly productive like turning wrenches or inspecting something for
50% of the time he's in his shop. All of the phone calls, drop in
customers, FedEX deliveries, potty breaks, etc. really cut into his
time.

I am surely not in a job to get uninterrupted time on an assignment
(computer specialist), I sure don't expect the same from my A&P!!!

I call it multitasking, if I didn't then people would scream to high
heaven if I didn't get to their problems quickly. Lower priority
problems get put aside for mission essentional problems. Annual sure is
a lower priority then somebody who came in and had a problem that
couldn't get them home.

In addition, my experience is that most IA's and A&P's have multiple
jobs going at one time. A field engine rebuild in this corner. An
elevator patch in another corner. An inspection in another corner, and
the other corner is being used to install an STC on someone's
airplane. And then someone shows up with a broken airplane and needs
to go on an important trip tomorrow.

I would gladly give up my time for somebody who needs out by tomorrow. I
sure would hope the same would be done in return should I be in podunct
airport and something goes amiss on my airplane.

Surely you jest in what you are saying above????

Jest? Naah. Not even complaining. Those are just the realities.


All of this adds up to a 2 week annual on a C-172 or a Cherokee.

It would have been three days had I not had problems, or parts ordered,
and IMHO that is more then reasonable, considering the business my A&P
has going through his hangar doors.

Personally, you need to lighten up on your A&P or find another one.

Again, I'm not complaining at all. I'm just pointing out the nature of the
business.

In fact, I hadn't seen or spoken to my IA in a while so I called and took
him to lunch last week. Since I do the inspections and maintenance on my
RV-6, he only gets an hour or so of business from me a year. And maybe a
couple of free lunches. ;-) I do pay him to time the mag, run a
compression test, and eyeball everything firewall forward once a year.


This person (me) will never complain should I have to take back seat to
an emergency repair when my plane is sitting in the comforts of my home
airport for an annual.

Allen

KB

"Roy N5804F" wrote in
k.net:


There is a very old expression "Work expands to fill the time
available for its completion"

Agree

The more time you allow your maintenance facilities, the longer they
will take, that's the nature of us humans.

Agree

We schedule all maintenance on a start date and finish date basis.

Would be nice... Airplanes have a different agenda.

We provide a written itemized list of all work to be performed before
scheduling the time in the shop, and we make sure that they have the
parts to hand before work starts.

Until you find something unexpectactly that requires a part order. It
would be unreasonable to order the unexpected, no?

If a facility exceeds the finish date, they know about it in no
uncertain terms.

Usually happens especially if something unexpected comes up AND parts
need to be ordered. Also, it may take a week to send off a part for
servicing, this is not the A&P's fault. Case in point, my failing
cylinder. Extra work being done on it, and it still may have to be sent
off to the shop for refurbishing. On a 500 hour SMOH engine, I wouldn't
expect my A&P to have cylinders lying around the shop specific to my
engine type.

It is quite ridiculous to allow any vendor in any business to be less
than efficient, you are doing them a disservice by aiding and abetting
the stagnation of their business.

Agree

Organize properly what service you are buying, ensure the vendor knows
what is expected and you unscheduled down time will be at a minimum.

Easy to do in the fantasy world, unfortunately airplanes have a different
agenda :-)

Allen

This is coming from a Student who is going to school to get his A&P...

To answer the question about how long before having an A&P Relook at
your engine and co another compression check.. If I remember correctly
it should 150 hours of flight time to allow the engine to be run in and
allow the rings to reseat and break in properly.

A Lieberma wrote:
Newps wrote in
:

If it's passing the rings then it's coming out the breather line, not
likely to get better. Everybody thinks the rings move during
operation, no way. You don't just happen to get unlucky and have the
rings lined up at the annual.

Since he got the compression up to 65, I am willing to give it a go.

With this in mind, how many hours down the road should I get him to run
another compression test?

He did have me change the oil from 15 weight to 20 weight. Do you think
this will mask the problem any?

Allen

B A R R Y wrote:
On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 15:44:24 GMT, A Lieberma
wrote:


No lead on the plugs, as Jay pointed out, so it's not due to plug fouling.

In my case, the fouling was on valve seats.

How would a fouled plug kill compression? G

ok how would a fouled plug kill compression....

If its fouled.. it isn't burning all the fuel that is being injected
into the cylinder and thus your compression is actually forcing that
out the exhaust thus lowering compression because its not pushing the
cylinder all the way do BDC so your not getting the full potential out
of your cyliner or engine with the plugs are fouled.

wrote:
B A R R Y wrote:

Do you taxi full rich?

We used to, which occasionally have us slightly low compression
readings on one or more cylinders in the hangar. The low cylinder
would move, as there was nothing really wrong. G We now lean
aggressively until we get to the runup area, and have never seen the
problem again.

Our home field is 250 MSL.

Can you (or anyone else) explain the mechanism of this? Why a full ruch
taxi would affect compression? I routinely lean the mixture for idle
and taxi because I've learned that at my home airport (KORL) the plugs
can foul between the ram and the run up area. But I don't understand
(and I'd like to be educated) how it affects compression.

John Stevens
PP-ASEL


Ok I am a student who is in the process go getting his A&P License and
just finished the portion dealing with what your asking..

When you run your engine at full rich you are giving the engine more
fuel than it can fully burn and use to push the cylinder down and drive
the other cylinders back up compressing the fuel air mixture. It will
continue to push but you won't get the full potential from your
compression... A way to see if your running at the correct mixture and
see if your engine is functioning to its full potentail you should
perform a MAG drop check...

To do this... after you have run your engine up and have it warm...
enrichen your mixture until it just starts to run rough then pull back
slightly... then slowly pull your throttle back to around 1700 rpm then
switch briefly while watching your tachometer to your left then back to
both and then to right and then back to both... You should see a drop
of around 50 to 75 rpm drop if your mixture is set correctly.

Daniel Brooks
A&P Pending school completion

" wrote in
ups.com:

This is coming from a Student who is going to school to get his A&P...

To answer the question about how long before having an A&P Relook at
your engine and co another compression check.. If I remember correctly
it should 150 hours of flight time to allow the engine to be run in and
allow the rings to reseat and break in properly.

See my followup post. Unfortunately, the cylinder had to be pulled and
sent out for service. I didn't make it 35 minutes before I started
noticing a missed beat in the engine.

The cylinder was a 500 hour old cylinder. I had a major overhaul so I am
the only one that has been flying this plane since SMOH.

Needless to say, testing it, I made the wise decision NOT to leave the
airport environment!

Look forward to seeing future posts from you! Learning everyday. I may
not be able to turn a wrench too well, but sure is nice to know what is
being done and admire y'alls expertism.

I was telling the A&P, that if it was me to pull that cylinder, I wouldn't
know what nut / bolt to crack to begin the process. He made it look so
effortless!

Allen

wrote:

If its fouled.. it isn't burning all the fuel that is being injected
into the cylinder and thus your compression is actually forcing that
out the exhaust thus lowering compression because its not pushing the
cylinder all the way do BDC so your not getting the full potential out
of your cyliner or engine with the plugs are fouled.


Based on how I've seen a compression test performed, that makes no sense
at all. Either I'm using the wrong terms or I'm not understanding your
description.

AFAIK, Compression tests are performed with the valves closed and the
cylinder at full compression, where a reading is taken, and possibly
watched for leakage (a diminishing reading).

Are you an A&P?