Some bad controllers

one bad thing about filing IFR here is that you have to go around all the
MOA's, ABQ told me that if I wanted to get my clearance from them I would have
to turn towards drake and get out of the MOA. picking up your IFR when you need
it allows you to fly through the MOA's and if they are not active, the
restricted area's also. Flying IFR, I would have got peach springs, drake then
phoenix. The worst of the weather was in that direction, the better weather was
the other direction. this was according to FSS. But they also said skies were
clear all the way to the edge of phoenix. I found out that was wrong.

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote:

Mike Rapoport wrote:
Fine, but while flying above the nasty icing clouds, don't ask for IFR to
descend to your destination in busy class B airspace!

I won't because I almost always file IFR the entire trip. Just seems
easier in many respects and I don't mind talking to the friendly (mostly
anyway) ATC folks. :-)

Matt

In article et,
"Mike Rapoport" wrote:

If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no business
filing, requesting or flying IFR.


That's an interesting perspective since most of the airliners in the
local class B seem to want to stay out of the clouds, particularly in
the summer time, to avoid the bumps from convective activity... and I'm
talking about fairly mundane cumulus clouds. Doesn't seem to be a
problem for them, and it's never been a problem for me, but I don't ask
for pop-up IFR clearances either.

The bottom line is that the needs and capabilities of every aircraft may
be different, but just because someone doesn't have a known-ice aircraft
with radar and turbines on the wings doesn't mean that he shouldn't file
or fly IFR. It simply means that he needs to communicate his needs and
reasons for his requests to controllers who may be used to dealing with
a different type of aircraft.


JKG

OK, if ATC was unable to accommodate the request (to stay clear of the
cloud), would you come here ranting about their incompetence? Do you think
the airline pilots would?

Mike
MU-2

"Jonathan Goodish" wrote in message
...
In article et,
"Mike Rapoport" wrote:

If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no
business
filing, requesting or flying IFR.


That's an interesting perspective since most of the airliners in the
local class B seem to want to stay out of the clouds, particularly in
the summer time, to avoid the bumps from convective activity... and I'm
talking about fairly mundane cumulus clouds. Doesn't seem to be a
problem for them, and it's never been a problem for me, but I don't ask
for pop-up IFR clearances either.

The bottom line is that the needs and capabilities of every aircraft may
be different, but just because someone doesn't have a known-ice aircraft
with radar and turbines on the wings doesn't mean that he shouldn't file
or fly IFR. It simply means that he needs to communicate his needs and
reasons for his requests to controllers who may be used to dealing with
a different type of aircraft.


JKG

Mike Rapoport wrote:

OK, if ATC was unable to accommodate the request (to stay clear of the
cloud), would you come here ranting about their incompetence? Do you think
the airline pilots would?


I'll concede him one point. He stated he attempted to pick-up his IFR
clearance from ABQ earlier en route but they wouldn't provide service unless he
accepted routing towards Drake, higher terrain, and worse weather. That is an
ugly pattern that has grown worse over the years, sterilization of western U.S.
Victor airways for MOAs even when they are likely not in use.

wrote in message ...


Mike Rapoport wrote:

OK, if ATC was unable to accommodate the request (to stay clear of the
cloud), would you come here ranting about their incompetence? Do you
think
the airline pilots would?


I'll concede him one point. He stated he attempted to pick-up his IFR
clearance from ABQ earlier en route but they wouldn't provide service
unless he
accepted routing towards Drake, higher terrain, and worse weather. That
is an
ugly pattern that has grown worse over the years, sterilization of western
U.S.
Victor airways for MOAs even when they are likely not in use.


Anybody who files IFR from Las Vegas to Pheonix has to expect to go over
DRK.

Mike
MU-2

In article . net, "Mike
Rapoport" writes:

OK, if ATC was unable to accommodate the request (to stay clear of the
cloud), would you come here ranting about their incompetence? Do you think
the airline pilots would?


Get off it, Mike. Jeff had an "experience" and he shared it with us and we've
had our comments - pro and con. Your continuing to beat on it will make the
less calloused in the group not post. We will all (you included if you have
anything to learn) be the worse for it. Personally, I've followed the advice
or direction of someone else (both controllers and my wife) and later found
that I wish I hadn't. I'd like this group to be free discussion with less
vitriol.

Chuck

I'm not "beating on it" I was responding to someones post.

I agree that Jeff had an "experience". The issue is that he is blaming his
"experience" on someone else instead of taking responsibility for it and
learning from it.

Mike
MU-2

"PaulaJay1" wrote in message
...
In article . net, "Mike
Rapoport" writes:

OK, if ATC was unable to accommodate the request (to stay clear of the
cloud), would you come here ranting about their incompetence? Do you
think
the airline pilots would?


Get off it, Mike. Jeff had an "experience" and he shared it with us and
we've
had our comments - pro and con. Your continuing to beat on it will make
the
less calloused in the group not post. We will all (you included if you
have
anything to learn) be the worse for it. Personally, I've followed the
advice
or direction of someone else (both controllers and my wife) and later
found
that I wish I hadn't. I'd like this group to be free discussion with less
vitriol.

Chuck

I don't understand how you got so close to the clouds before you got
an IFR clearance. Outside of class B you have to maintain 1000' above
the cloud layer to remain VFR. I am assuming you were in class E
airspace; if it was class G, then I apologize. Your post indicates
that you were outside of class B, yet you were zig zagging around the
clouds.





Jeff wrote in message ...
Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
600.

freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so
I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.

all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
one was talking except me.
then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my
safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some
clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me
down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me
off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.

that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.

Taking a different track, so i changed the thread/subject line...

If you are on a composite flight plan (VFR, then IFR) who is responsible for
closing the VFR portion of the plan? If the VFR plan is not closed (with
FSS if a true VFR plan) then SAR will be initiated if they cannot get hold
of you within an hour or two.

How does this work with a composite flight plan?



On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 15:39:17 -0800, Jeff wrote:

Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
600.

freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so
I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.

all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
one was talking except me.
then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my
safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some
clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me
down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me
off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.

that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.

Jay Somerset wrote:
Taking a different track, so i changed the thread/subject line...

If you are on a composite flight plan (VFR, then IFR) who is responsible for
closing the VFR portion of the plan? If the VFR plan is not closed (with
FSS if a true VFR plan) then SAR will be initiated if they cannot get hold
of you within an hour or two.

How does this work with a composite flight plan?

The pilot is responsible for contacting FSS and closing the VFR portion of the
flight plan.

DGB
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.