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Hawk Wind



 
 
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  #11  
Old April 30th 21, 08:43 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Galloway[_2_]
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Posts: 58
Default Hawk Wind

On Friday, 30 April 2021 at 05:14:26 UTC+1, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 4/29/2021 3:15 PM, jfitch wrote:
It does not sound like an inertial solution, but rather a more sophisticated pneumatic and magnetic calculation. It will be interesting to compare it to a Butterfly. In their paper, they erroneously claim that no instant wind calculation method existed before theirs - marketing I guess.
On Tuesday, April 27, 2021 at 10:27:19 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Has anyone any experience yet with the new Lxnav Hawk Wind program? Sounds superficially to me like it might be an alternative to the Butterfly wind solution which is no longer readily available. And this program seems to avoid some of the Butterfly installation challenges?

I don't think it uses magnetic sensing, as it does not require the optional
compass. So, it's all inertial and GPS, and I think doing it without a compass
was an important goal. 990eur for wind equal to the Butterfly, and a AHRS, is at
reasonable price for me. A separate AHRS is in the $800-$1000 range, so I'd bet
getting the Hawk features for about $200-$400 dollars with the Hawk/AHRS.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1


The HAWK article referenced on the LXNAV website makes it very clear that it doesn't use magnetic sensing and why:

https://gliding.lxnav.com/news/segel...magazines-eng/

Except for people with a Butterfly vario already installed that vario is now history so for the rest of us there isn't much value in comparing the two systems.
  #12  
Old April 30th 21, 03:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,939
Default Hawk Wind

On 4/30/2021 12:43 AM, John Galloway wrote:
On Friday, 30 April 2021 at 05:14:26 UTC+1, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 4/29/2021 3:15 PM, jfitch wrote:
It does not sound like an inertial solution, but rather a more sophisticated pneumatic and magnetic calculation. It will be interesting to compare it to a Butterfly. In their paper, they erroneously claim that no instant wind calculation method existed before theirs - marketing I guess.
On Tuesday, April 27, 2021 at 10:27:19 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Has anyone any experience yet with the new Lxnav Hawk Wind program? Sounds superficially to me like it might be an alternative to the Butterfly wind solution which is no longer readily available. And this program seems to avoid some of the Butterfly installation challenges?

I don't think it uses magnetic sensing, as it does not require the optional
compass. So, it's all inertial and GPS, and I think doing it without a compass
was an important goal. 990eur for wind equal to the Butterfly, and a AHRS, is at
reasonable price for me. A separate AHRS is in the $800-$1000 range, so I'd bet
getting the Hawk features for about $200-$400 dollars with the Hawk/AHRS.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1


The HAWK article referenced on the LXNAV website makes it very clear that it doesn't use magnetic sensing and why:

https://gliding.lxnav.com/news/segel...magazines-eng/

Except for people with a Butterfly vario already installed that vario is now history so for the rest of us there isn't much value in comparing the two systems.

There is for me: I have a new glider ordered, and I considered keeping the
Butterfly vario that's in my current glider. Now, I'm willing to let it go with
the current glider when I sell it.

It should also be a useful comparison for people that want a vario with a fast
wind update, and now know there is something that may be as good (or maybe even
better) than the now unavailable Butterfly.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
  #13  
Old May 1st 21, 07:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,439
Default Hawk Wind

On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 7:06:28 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 4/30/2021 12:43 AM, John Galloway wrote:
On Friday, 30 April 2021 at 05:14:26 UTC+1, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 4/29/2021 3:15 PM, jfitch wrote:
It does not sound like an inertial solution, but rather a more sophisticated pneumatic and magnetic calculation. It will be interesting to compare it to a Butterfly. In their paper, they erroneously claim that no instant wind calculation method existed before theirs - marketing I guess.
On Tuesday, April 27, 2021 at 10:27:19 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Has anyone any experience yet with the new Lxnav Hawk Wind program? Sounds superficially to me like it might be an alternative to the Butterfly wind solution which is no longer readily available. And this program seems to avoid some of the Butterfly installation challenges?
I don't think it uses magnetic sensing, as it does not require the optional
compass. So, it's all inertial and GPS, and I think doing it without a compass
was an important goal. 990eur for wind equal to the Butterfly, and a AHRS, is at
reasonable price for me. A separate AHRS is in the $800-$1000 range, so I'd bet
getting the Hawk features for about $200-$400 dollars with the Hawk/AHRS.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1


The HAWK article referenced on the LXNAV website makes it very clear that it doesn't use magnetic sensing and why:

https://gliding.lxnav.com/news/segel...magazines-eng/

Except for people with a Butterfly vario already installed that vario is now history so for the rest of us there isn't much value in comparing the two systems.

There is for me: I have a new glider ordered, and I considered keeping the
Butterfly vario that's in my current glider. Now, I'm willing to let it go with
the current glider when I sell it.

It should also be a useful comparison for people that want a vario with a fast
wind update, and now know there is something that may be as good (or maybe even
better) than the now unavailable Butterfly.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1


To get the Hawk option you first have to buy the AHRS option, so the total cost will be something in the neighborhood of $1,200 (the only price I have seen was about 975 euro). If you don't have an AHRS this might make sense, but I already do (a Garmin G5 PFD), so I would have to evaluate it on the wind option alone. I already get real-time wind by comparing my true airspeed to GPS ground speed (which I have displayed side-by-side in Nav boxes). And you can get a stand alone artificial horizon for as little as $335 (https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catal...-11-16581.php).

Tom
  #14  
Old May 1st 21, 09:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,939
Default Hawk Wind

On 5/1/2021 11:06 AM, 2G wrote:
On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 7:06:28 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 4/30/2021 12:43 AM, John Galloway wrote:

....
The HAWK article referenced on the LXNAV website makes it very clear that it doesn't use magnetic sensing and why:

https://gliding.lxnav.com/news/segel...magazines-eng/

Except for people with a Butterfly vario already installed that vario is now history so for the rest of us there isn't much value in comparing the two systems.

There is for me: I have a new glider ordered, and I considered keeping the
Butterfly vario that's in my current glider. Now, I'm willing to let it go with
the current glider when I sell it.

It should also be a useful comparison for people that want a vario with a fast
wind update, and now know there is something that may be as good (or maybe even
better) than the now unavailable Butterfly.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1


To get the Hawk option you first have to buy the AHRS option, so the total cost will be something in the neighborhood of $1,200 (the only price I have seen was about 975 euro). If you don't have an AHRS this might make sense, but I already do (a Garmin G5 PFD), so I would have to evaluate it on the wind option alone. I already get real-time wind by comparing my true airspeed to GPS ground speed (which I have displayed side-by-side in Nav boxes). And you can get a stand alone artificial horizon for as little as $335 (https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catal...-11-16581.php).


Do you have the compass option for the LX? Does your method give real-time wind
direction, or just real-time headwind?

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
  #15  
Old May 1st 21, 10:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,439
Default Hawk Wind

On Saturday, May 1, 2021 at 1:34:16 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 5/1/2021 11:06 AM, 2G wrote:
On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 7:06:28 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 4/30/2021 12:43 AM, John Galloway wrote:

...
The HAWK article referenced on the LXNAV website makes it very clear that it doesn't use magnetic sensing and why:

https://gliding.lxnav.com/news/segel...magazines-eng/

Except for people with a Butterfly vario already installed that vario is now history so for the rest of us there isn't much value in comparing the two systems.

There is for me: I have a new glider ordered, and I considered keeping the
Butterfly vario that's in my current glider. Now, I'm willing to let it go with
the current glider when I sell it.

It should also be a useful comparison for people that want a vario with a fast
wind update, and now know there is something that may be as good (or maybe even
better) than the now unavailable Butterfly.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1


To get the Hawk option you first have to buy the AHRS option, so the total cost will be something in the neighborhood of $1,200 (the only price I have seen was about 975 euro). If you don't have an AHRS this might make sense, but I already do (a Garmin G5 PFD), so I would have to evaluate it on the wind option alone. I already get real-time wind by comparing my true airspeed to GPS ground speed (which I have displayed side-by-side in Nav boxes). And you can get a stand alone artificial horizon for as little as $335 (https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catal...-11-16581.php).

Do you have the compass option for the LX? Does your method give real-time wind
direction, or just real-time headwind?
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1


No, I don't. The feedback I've been given is that the fluxgate compass doesn't work very well (it's hard to compensate). Would consider it if others gave it their stamp of approval, however.

Tom
  #16  
Old May 2nd 21, 01:39 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andrzej Kobus
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 585
Default Hawk Wind

On Saturday, May 1, 2021 at 2:06:30 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 7:06:28 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 4/30/2021 12:43 AM, John Galloway wrote:
On Friday, 30 April 2021 at 05:14:26 UTC+1, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 4/29/2021 3:15 PM, jfitch wrote:
It does not sound like an inertial solution, but rather a more sophisticated pneumatic and magnetic calculation. It will be interesting to compare it to a Butterfly. In their paper, they erroneously claim that no instant wind calculation method existed before theirs - marketing I guess.
On Tuesday, April 27, 2021 at 10:27:19 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Has anyone any experience yet with the new Lxnav Hawk Wind program? Sounds superficially to me like it might be an alternative to the Butterfly wind solution which is no longer readily available. And this program seems to avoid some of the Butterfly installation challenges?
I don't think it uses magnetic sensing, as it does not require the optional
compass. So, it's all inertial and GPS, and I think doing it without a compass
was an important goal. 990eur for wind equal to the Butterfly, and a AHRS, is at
reasonable price for me. A separate AHRS is in the $800-$1000 range, so I'd bet
getting the Hawk features for about $200-$400 dollars with the Hawk/AHRS.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

The HAWK article referenced on the LXNAV website makes it very clear that it doesn't use magnetic sensing and why:

https://gliding.lxnav.com/news/segel...magazines-eng/

Except for people with a Butterfly vario already installed that vario is now history so for the rest of us there isn't much value in comparing the two systems.

There is for me: I have a new glider ordered, and I considered keeping the
Butterfly vario that's in my current glider. Now, I'm willing to let it go with
the current glider when I sell it.

It should also be a useful comparison for people that want a vario with a fast
wind update, and now know there is something that may be as good (or maybe even
better) than the now unavailable Butterfly.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

To get the Hawk option you first have to buy the AHRS option, so the total cost will be something in the neighborhood of $1,200 (the only price I have seen was about 975 euro). If you don't have an AHRS this might make sense, but I already do (a Garmin G5 PFD), so I would have to evaluate it on the wind option alone. I already get real-time wind by comparing my true airspeed to GPS ground speed (which I have displayed side-by-side in Nav boxes).. And you can get a stand alone artificial horizon for as little as $335 (https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catal...-11-16581.php).

Tom

You should read carefully before you post. This is just a display you still need a sensor.

The AHRS-2 / MAG-2 can be setup to display the following:
• Compass with optional slip indicator (requires MGL Avionics SP-6 sensor package)
• Horizon with optional slip, turn indicator & G-Force (requires MGL Avionics SP-7/9 sensor package)
• Turn and bank indicator (requires MGL Avionics SP-7/9 sensor package)
• Combined compass and horizon display with bank indicator, optional slip indicator & G-Force (requires MGL Avionics SP6 & SP-7/9 sensor packages)
  #17  
Old May 2nd 21, 02:20 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
waremark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 377
Default Hawk Wind

On Friday, 30 April 2021 at 15:06:28 UTC+1, Eric Greenwell wrote:


There is for me: I have a new glider ordered, and I considered keeping the
Butterfly vario that's in my current glider. Now, I'm willing to let it go with
the current glider when I sell it.

It should also be a useful comparison for people that want a vario with a fast
wind update, and now know there is something that may be as good (or maybe even
better) than the now unavailable Butterfly.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1



I would hold off making that decision until we get more positive feedback on HAWK. My friend who set up HAWK on his S10 a few days ago was disappointed on his first flight with it - a flat-land thermalling flight. On that flight at no time did it give different wind from his LX 9070, or different vario behaviour. I hope we will get better news in due course.
  #18  
Old May 2nd 21, 06:58 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Matthew Scutter
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 42
Default Hawk Wind

On Sunday, May 2, 2021 at 11:20:34 AM UTC+10, waremark wrote:
On Friday, 30 April 2021 at 15:06:28 UTC+1, Eric Greenwell wrote:


There is for me: I have a new glider ordered, and I considered keeping the
Butterfly vario that's in my current glider. Now, I'm willing to let it go with
the current glider when I sell it.

It should also be a useful comparison for people that want a vario with a fast
wind update, and now know there is something that may be as good (or maybe even
better) than the now unavailable Butterfly.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

I would hold off making that decision until we get more positive feedback on HAWK. My friend who set up HAWK on his S10 a few days ago was disappointed on his first flight with it - a flat-land thermalling flight. On that flight at no time did it give different wind from his LX 9070, or different vario behaviour. I hope we will get better news in due course.


Would you expect it to function meaningfully differently in the flatlands? Circling wind should work just fine in a homogenous atmosphere, so functioning the same would be ideal.
Similarly I would be surprised if there was improvement in variometer function from an existing well-compensated setup. All I would wish for additionally from my existing variometer is that it would read accurately in the first second of the pullup into a thermal.
  #19  
Old May 2nd 21, 11:12 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Galloway[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 58
Default Hawk Wind

On Sunday, 2 May 2021 at 06:58:35 UTC+1, Matthew Scutter wrote:
On Sunday, May 2, 2021 at 11:20:34 AM UTC+10, waremark wrote:
On Friday, 30 April 2021 at 15:06:28 UTC+1, Eric Greenwell wrote:


There is for me: I have a new glider ordered, and I considered keeping the
Butterfly vario that's in my current glider. Now, I'm willing to let it go with
the current glider when I sell it.

It should also be a useful comparison for people that want a vario with a fast
wind update, and now know there is something that may be as good (or maybe even
better) than the now unavailable Butterfly.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

I would hold off making that decision until we get more positive feedback on HAWK. My friend who set up HAWK on his S10 a few days ago was disappointed on his first flight with it - a flat-land thermalling flight. On that flight at no time did it give different wind from his LX 9070, or different vario behaviour. I hope we will get better news in due course.

Would you expect it to function meaningfully differently in the flatlands? Circling wind should work just fine in a homogenous atmosphere, so functioning the same would be ideal.
Similarly I would be surprised if there was improvement in variometer function from an existing well-compensated setup. All I would wish for additionally from my existing variometer is that it would read accurately in the first second of the pullup into a thermal.


According to the the articles the TEK and EKF readings should be very similar while thermal lung as long as the glider is being piloted optimally. I am hoping that it will successfully show real lift in the cruise and avoid spurious readings caused by gusts with a significant horizontal component. A huge bonus would be if it ignores excursions due to g loads during the pull-up or push-over - I am not clear from the articles published whether it can do that.
  #20  
Old May 2nd 21, 11:45 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 20
Default Hawk Wind

On Sunday, 2 May 2021 at 11:12:12 UTC+1, wrote:
... very similar while thermal lung as long as the glider ...

Just luuuved your spell-checker's 'thermal lung' for 'thermalling' . Mine (well, Google's) went for 'thermal ling'!
J.
 




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