Coalition casualties for september

Peter Skelton wrote:

That is not correct. Speed is a factor.

Peter Skelton

GB wrote:
Speed is a factor in what?...hydroplaning?, of course it is, in
the case of a wheel losing traction because of the action of a
lubricant?, no it isn't.

Speed is a factor in the ease of slippage of a rail car wheel on
a wet track.

Peter Skelton

Of course it is Peter, if 'speed' weren't involved then there'd
be no slippage would there now?. You can't have slippage without
speed being involved can you?

My point is that there must be a certain speed attained by a tire
before there can be a wedge of water forced between the tire and
the road surface to attain that condition known as hydroplaning.
--

-Gord.

Fred J. McCall wrote:


:If you ever convince them both that they're wrong then please
:have them send me letters of abject apology.
:
:Hell, I'll even accept a mousey little 'oops'.

I'd suggest they need to take it up with commercial airlines, which
disagree with them and include weight in their gross approximation,
since the typical aircraft that they operate can change weight quite
drastically in the normal course of operations.

Ok Fred...It's certainly possible that I'm wrong (along with a
few authority figures) but it's also possible that you're right
about 'Rule of thumb' etc. The one thing that I strongly doubt
though is that the Airlines factor in weight when computing this
figure. I grant that it may make some very slight measurable
difference but I doubt that it makes 'enough' difference to
consider in aircraft operations. The only person who frequents
these haunts and who would likely know (that I know of) is John
Weiss.

Unless you have a credible cite?.

--

-Gord.

"Gord Beaman" ) wrote:

:Fred J. McCall wrote:
:
:
::If you ever convince them both that they're wrong then please
::have them send me letters of abject apology.
::
::Hell, I'll even accept a mousey little 'oops'.
:
:I'd suggest they need to take it up with commercial airlines, which
:disagree with them and include weight in their gross approximation,
:since the typical aircraft that they operate can change weight quite
:drastically in the normal course of operations.
:
:Ok Fred...It's certainly possible that I'm wrong (along with a
:few authority figures) but it's also possible that you're right
:about 'Rule of thumb' etc.

Oh, it is. And you're even being inaccurate in what you claim. The
figure you come up with is the most common rule of thumb for what is
called 'dynamic hydroplaning' to compute 'minimum hydroplaning speed'.
Minimum hydroplaning speed is the minimum speed at which dynamic
hydroplaning MAY begin. Looking about on the web, one finds the
multiplication factor used with the square root of tire pressure to
range from 7 to 9 (with 7 given as used for treadless tires, most
airlines using 8.7 for aircraft mains, and everyone else using 9).

As a rule of thumb, it works fairly well for aircraft. This is
because aircraft tires tend to be of similar profile, material, and
tread pattern. It works less well for automobiles and other light
vehicles, which may have tires of varying profiles and designs,
however. See, for example,
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete...droplaning.htm.

I will also note that you totally ignore both viscous hydroplaning and
rubber reversion hydroplaning, which can occur at virtually any speed.

:The one thing that I strongly doubt
:though is that the Airlines factor in weight when computing this
:figure. I grant that it may make some very slight measurable
:difference but I doubt that it makes 'enough' difference to
:consider in aircraft operations. The only person who frequents
:these haunts and who would likely know (that I know of) is John
:Weiss.
:
:Unless you have a credible cite?.

Try www.ejapilots.com/airlines/delta.htm (appears to currently be
unavailable), where question and answer 22 from a Delta pilot quiz
read:

"22) What three things affect hydroplaning?
Tire Pressure, Weight, and Depth of Water."

It was available the last time this went round and round, which is
where I saw it in the first place.

We done yet, or do I need to spend yet more time digging up things to
beat on you with? :-)


--
"Nekubi o kaite was ikenai"
["It does not do to slit the throat of a sleeping man."]
-- Admiral Yamamoto

Fred J. McCall wrote:

GB wrote:
:Unless you have a credible cite?.

Try www.ejapilots.com/airlines/delta.htm (appears to currently be
unavailable), where question and answer 22 from a Delta pilot quiz
read:

"22) What three things affect hydroplaning?
Tire Pressure, Weight, and Depth of Water."

It was available the last time this went round and round, which is
where I saw it in the first place.

We done yet, or do I need to spend yet more time digging up things to
beat on you with? :-)

Oh, I dunno Fred...all you've given me so far has been one cite
which doesn't look too authoritative to me, another cite which
doesn't work (I checked it too) and your assurances that this
dead site held "Some Delta Pilot's" assurances that the three
things that affect hydroplaning is "Tire Pressure, Weight and
Water Depth". Hell's bells, he didn't think that speed was
important enough to mention, humm.

Well, I'm a Flight Engineer with multi thousands of hours
airtime, multi tens of years experience and let me assure you
that when this first came out and was studied and tested in the
sixties that it was heavily drilled into our trade. From that I
say that a practical rule of thumb in this regard is that;

"Hydroplaning will commence (given sufficient water depth) at a
speed that is dependant on the tire pressure", That speed (in
Knots) will be approximately nine times the square root of that
tire pressure (in PSI).

I also say that "No, I don't require any more things to beat on
me with unless they're more authoritative than you've shown so
far".
--

-Gord.

"Gord Beaman" ) wrote:

:Fred J. McCall wrote:
:
:GB wrote:
::Unless you have a credible cite?.
:
:Try www.ejapilots.com/airlines/delta.htm (appears to currently be
:unavailable), where question and answer 22 from a Delta pilot quiz
:read:
:
:"22) What three things affect hydroplaning?
:Tire Pressure, Weight, and Depth of Water."
:
:It was available the last time this went round and round, which is
:where I saw it in the first place.
:
:We done yet, or do I need to spend yet more time digging up things to
:beat on you with? :-)
:
:Oh, I dunno Fred...all you've given me so far has been one cite
:which doesn't look too authoritative to me,

Well, to be honest, I'm not to concerned about how authoritative
things may look to you, since you seem to be in the category of "my
mind is made up, so stop clouding the issue with facts". All you've
given me so far is assertion, which I DEFINITELY find less than
authoritative.

:another cite which
:doesn't work (I checked it too) and your assurances that this
:dead site held "Some Delta Pilot's" assurances that the three
:things that affect hydroplaning is "Tire Pressure, Weight and
:Water Depth". Hell's bells, he didn't think that speed was
:important enough to mention, humm.

Not what I said at all. I said it was a question from a test that
Delta used for incoming pilots.

If you're going to call me a liar, at least get the statement you
claim is a lie correct. I would claim that you are a liar, since all
you've offered is mere personal assertion, but that wouldn't be right.
I think you're just stubbornly (and incorrectly) convinced you have
the only answer.

If you Google, the text of the question and answer still shows up in
the find list, even though the page is not available.

But don't bother to look. I'm sure it will only upset you.

:Well, I'm a Flight Engineer with multi thousands of hours
:airtime, multi tens of years experience and let me assure you
:that when this first came out and was studied and tested in the
:sixties that it was heavily drilled into our trade. From that I
:say that a practical rule of thumb in this regard is that;
:
:"Hydroplaning will commence (given sufficient water depth) at a
:speed that is dependant on the tire pressure", That speed (in
:Knots) will be approximately nine times the square root of that
:tire pressure (in PSI).

Except, of course, that everyone else involved in the industry doesn't
seem to be in full agreement with you. Somehow I suspect that if you
add up all their experience, it's more than yours. Based on the fact
that you think your preceding argument from authority ought to be
effective, you should now be prepared to change your mind.

:I also say that "No, I don't require any more things to beat on
:me with unless they're more authoritative than you've shown so
:far".

Deal. You're free to keep your head up and firmly locked in its
present location for just as long as you wish to (and can stand the
odor).


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn

Fred J. McCall wrote:


Not what I said at all. I said it was a question from a test that
Delta used for incoming pilots.

If you're going to call me a liar, at least get the statement you
claim is a lie correct. I would claim that you are a liar, since all
you've offered is mere personal assertion, but that wouldn't be right.
I think you're just stubbornly (and incorrectly) convinced you have
the only answer.


Hey!!...McCall!!...where did I call you a liar?!?. Try to be at
least somewhat honest here buster. I did damned well NOT call you
a liar...I severely resent that accusation. And You DID NOT say
that it was from a test for incoming pilots.

Here's what you said:
....where question and answer 22 from a Delta pilot quiz
:read:
:
:"22) What three things affect hydroplaning?
:Tire Pressure, Weight, and Depth of Water."

....here's what I said:
"Some Delta Pilot's" assurances that the three things that
affect hydroplaning is "Tire Pressure, Weight and Water Depth"

Now mister where did I LIE? It's almost word for word what you
said after all.

If you Google, the text of the question and answer still shows up in
the find list, even though the page is not available.

Now what would be the gain in that pray tell me?...I believe what
you said...


But don't bother to look. I'm sure it will only upset you.

Hardly...why would an error made by a commercial pilot upset me?

:Well, I'm a Flight Engineer with multi thousands of hours
:airtime, multi tens of years experience and let me assure you
:that when this first came out and was studied and tested in the
:sixties that it was heavily drilled into our trade. From that I
:say that a practical rule of thumb in this regard is that;
:
:"Hydroplaning will commence (given sufficient water depth) at a
:speed that is dependant on the tire pressure", That speed (in
:Knots) will be approximately nine times the square root of that
:tire pressure (in PSI).

Except, of course, that everyone else involved in the industry doesn't
seem to be in full agreement with you.

That's really quite funny McCall...you seem to think that you
have the ear of everyone in the aircraft industry and what's more
you make that preposterous statement right out in public here.

Aren't you even the slightest bit red faced?!?...remember, these
words are archived for all time!...snort

Somehow I suspect that if you
add up all their experience, it's more than yours.

...good god, of course...get a grip...


Based on the fact
that you think your preceding argument from authority ought to be
effective, you should now be prepared to change your mind.


The day never dawns when I'm not open to being proven wrong
sir...

I'll make you a deal...wnen (if) you prove me wrong then I'll
stand up on my hind legs and admit that I was wrong (I've sure
done that before). Hell, I won't even ask you to do the same,
because I really don't give a rat's ass.

:I also say that "No, I don't require any more things to beat on
:me with unless they're more authoritative than you've shown so
:far".


Deal. You're free to keep your head up and firmly locked in its
present location for just as long as you wish to (and can stand the
odor).

Really not a wonderful debater are you McCall?...just can't help
but let your anger get the upper hand can you?...Losing ones
temper is usually a sign of running out of arguments but we'll
see...we'll see...
--

-Gord.

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 05:19:48 GMT, Fred J. McCall wrote:

"Gord Beaman" ) wrote:

:Fred J. McCall wrote:
:
:GB wrote:
::Unless you have a credible cite?.
:
:Try www.ejapilots.com/airlines/delta.htm (appears to currently be
:unavailable), where question and answer 22 from a Delta pilot quiz
:read:
:
:"22) What three things affect hydroplaning?
:Tire Pressure, Weight, and Depth of Water."
:
:It was available the last time this went round and round, which is
:where I saw it in the first place.
:
:We done yet, or do I need to spend yet more time digging up things to
:beat on you with? :-)
:
:Oh, I dunno Fred...all you've given me so far has been one cite
:which doesn't look too authoritative to me,

Well, to be honest, I'm not to concerned about how authoritative
things may look to you, since you seem to be in the category of "my
mind is made up, so stop clouding the issue with facts". All you've
given me so far is assertion, which I DEFINITELY find less than
authoritative.

:another cite which
:doesn't work (I checked it too) and your assurances that this
:dead site held "Some Delta Pilot's" assurances that the three
:things that affect hydroplaning is "Tire Pressure, Weight and
:Water Depth". Hell's bells, he didn't think that speed was
:important enough to mention, humm.

Not what I said at all. I said it was a question from a test that
Delta used for incoming pilots.

If you're going to call me a liar, at least get the statement you
claim is a lie correct. I would claim that you are a liar, since all
you've offered is mere personal assertion, but that wouldn't be right.
I think you're just stubbornly (and incorrectly) convinced you have
the only answer.

If you Google, the text of the question and answer still shows up in
the find list, even though the page is not available.

But don't bother to look. I'm sure it will only upset you.

:Well, I'm a Flight Engineer with multi thousands of hours
:airtime, multi tens of years experience and let me assure you
:that when this first came out and was studied and tested in the
:sixties that it was heavily drilled into our trade. From that I
:say that a practical rule of thumb in this regard is that;
:
:"Hydroplaning will commence (given sufficient water depth) at a
:speed that is dependant on the tire pressure", That speed (in
:Knots) will be approximately nine times the square root of that
:tire pressure (in PSI).

Except, of course, that everyone else involved in the industry doesn't
seem to be in full agreement with you. Somehow I suspect that if you
add up all their experience, it's more than yours. Based on the fact
that you think your preceding argument from authority ought to be
effective, you should now be prepared to change your mind.

:I also say that "No, I don't require any more things to beat on
:me with unless they're more authoritative than you've shown so
:far".

Deal. You're free to keep your head up and firmly locked in its
present location for just as long as you wish to (and can stand the
odor).

So, if speed is not a factor an aircraft could hydro plane behind
the tow tractor? Sitting on the ramp? I rather doubt it. Any one
familiar with the mechanism of hydro planing knows that the
speed of the tire is a critical component.

The last time that you drove an automobile in a rain storm
did it hydro plane at a "stop" sign?

Al Minyard

Alan Minyard wrote:


So, if speed is not a factor an aircraft could hydro plane behind
the tow tractor? Sitting on the ramp? I rather doubt it. Any one
familiar with the mechanism of hydro planing knows that the
speed of the tire is a critical component.

The last time that you drove an automobile in a rain storm
did it hydro plane at a "stop" sign?

Al Minyard

What are you referring to here Al?, the Delta pilot's answer?.
--

-Gord.

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:51:04 GMT, "Gord Beaman" ) wrote:

Alan Minyard wrote:


So, if speed is not a factor an aircraft could hydro plane behind
the tow tractor? Sitting on the ramp? I rather doubt it. Any one
familiar with the mechanism of hydro planing knows that the
speed of the tire is a critical component.

The last time that you drove an automobile in a rain storm
did it hydro plane at a "stop" sign?

Al Minyard

What are you referring to here Al?, the Delta pilot's answer?.

Exactly. Saying that the only things that effect hydorplaning are inflation
pressure, weight, and water depth is ridiculous. Speed is a critical
variable.

Al Minyard

Alan Minyard wrote:

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:51:04 GMT, "Gord Beaman" ) wrote:

Alan Minyard wrote:


So, if speed is not a factor an aircraft could hydro plane behind
the tow tractor? Sitting on the ramp? I rather doubt it. Any one
familiar with the mechanism of hydro planing knows that the
speed of the tire is a critical component.

The last time that you drove an automobile in a rain storm
did it hydro plane at a "stop" sign?

Al Minyard

What are you referring to here Al?, the Delta pilot's answer?.

Exactly. Saying that the only things that effect hydorplaning are inflation
pressure, weight, and water depth is ridiculous. Speed is a critical
variable.

Al Minyard

Of course...poor Fred is doing some reaching I think so I'd tend
not to blame Delta too much for this one...as I said before it's
water depth, tire pressure and speed. Nothing else makes enough
difference to consider.
--

-Gord.