How safe is the sport of soaring today

Jeremy Zawodny wrote:
glider4 wrote:
Shirley,
I agree with JJ. A total of 500 hours is pretty low time to be soaring
in strong weather conditions at a high density altitude airport with
few reasonably safe landable areas near the home field.

As a relatively low-time pilot planning to attent Air Sailing's XC camp
in a few weeks, that's pretty discourging. I'd rather believe that
training and attention to safety are equally as important as having 500+
hours of flying experience.


You are right. Most of the accidents i know involved pilots with high
number of hours 1000. Main factor: age. Moreover many of these pilots
take bad habits which get more and more entranched, such as ridge flying
at slow speed and so on. One day or the other they get bitten.
Another factor of course is competition, notably among young pilots,
which take way too much risks to pass ahead of their pals. It's this way
the son of my colleague died. From what i have seen, young pilots which
are serious and don't want to enter ****ing contests learn to fly XC
in plastic gliders in far, far less than 500 hours, and are as good
pilots as multi thousand hours guys. World champions are an entirely
different category, and nobody needs to feel obliged to perform the same
exploits as they do.


--

Michel TALON

At 05:12 18 May 2004, Tom Seim wrote: (Snip)

Let's be serious for a moment. In regards to soaring,
which is what
this news group is about, you are a quitter. I, on
the other hand, am
a triple diamond holder. You don't use your real name
(surprise!). I,
on the other hand, do. I don't really care what else
you do, it's
irrelevent. But, were you to follow me around for a
single day, you
would be totally clueless about things that I am an
expert at. So
what? That has nothing to do with this news group.
You are basically a
bitter old man. I feel sorry for you.

Tom

I don't have a clue who Lennie is and I know that some
of the things he has said are somewhat provocative
but earlier in this thread, before the mudslinging
started he perhaps let slip something that we should
all consider. As human beings we all have limitations
and our limitations are different. We should all ask
ourselves 'am I competent to carry out the task'. Those
who can honestly answer yes and are flying within their
own limitations are the safe pilots. Those who are
not aware of the limitations or deliberately fly outside
them are something else. Anyone who recognises that
to continue when they are not sure of what they are
doing or realises that their committment has altered
and then act on that is not a quitter, he is a very
brave man. The graveyards are full of people who think
that they can get away with it for ever.

A triple diamond holder, does that make you a better
safer pilot do you think? It might, it probably does
but it could also mean that you are lucky, possess
better equipment or are a cheater. I am not for one
moment suggesting that you are any of the latter just
that in terms of safety and competence those little
sparkling gems mean very little. What means a great
deal more is the attitude you adopt when you take to
the air. Experience is not the number of diamonds you
have or even the number of flying hours, it is what
you have learned in achieving them. Safety is not about
achieving it is about attitude, skill and staying with
the limitations of yourself, your glider and others,
using the experience gained to avoid the dangerous
situations. Recognising that the time has come to quit
is the bravest that anyone could do.

Who should we really feel sorry for?

(Tom Seim) wrote in message . com...

Let's be serious for a moment. In regards to soaring, which is what
this news group is about, you are a quitter.

Hmmmm, bankruptcy or quitter. Ok. Common sense prevailed.

I, on the other hand, am
a triple diamond holder.

BFHAD. Probably spent more getting them than I earned in ten years.

YOu were the one that in your magnificent egotism thought you could
insinuate that Lennie was unsafe. Lennie made most of the common
beginners mistakes, and recognized them in time that I'm still among
the living. My biggest mistake was thinking that maybe it wasn't a
rich man's game, it is, and will always be. The second biggest was
thinking maybe it was something I could do without a bunch of people
telling me "you should try_________" when they were things I really
didn't want to try. I don't care how different a Lark or blanik or
russia or anything else flew from the 1-26, and planting the seeds of
discontent would have been extremely stupid. IT did not happen.

HOwever, the only times I really did badly were times that I knew I
should not fly, but allowed myself to be talked into it, with totally
predictable results. Or, the only time that I consider that I was
really unsafe, was when I trusted the judgement of "more experienced
people" over my own. I flew badly, and knew I flew badly. What I
should have done was pulled the release at 1K and gone back
immediately to the ground. Nerves that are already on edge don't need
to be behind a tug. Like my other mistakes, it did not happen twice.

(Lennie the Lurker) wrote in message . com...
(Tom Seim) wrote in message . com...

Let's be serious for a moment. In regards to soaring, which is what
this news group is about, you are a quitter.

Hmmmm, bankruptcy or quitter. Ok. Common sense prevailed.

I, on the other hand, am
a triple diamond holder.

BFHAD. Probably spent more getting them than I earned in ten years.

Were you unemployed during those 10 years? Because you would have to
have been for this absurdity to be true. As usual, you know NOTHING of
what you speak.


YOu were the one that in your magnificent egotism thought you could
insinuate that Lennie was unsafe.

Who is the REAL Lennie? Who is this coward who doesn't want to use his
real name?

Lennie made most of the common
beginners mistakes, and recognized them in time that I'm still among
the living. My biggest mistake was thinking that maybe it wasn't a
rich man's game, it is, and will always be.

Wrong again, quitter. My son managed it while in the military, hardly
an Ivy League organization.

The second biggest was
thinking maybe it was something I could do without a bunch of people
telling me "you should try_________" when they were things I really
didn't want to try. I don't care how different a Lark or blanik or
russia or anything else flew from the 1-26, and planting the seeds of
discontent would have been extremely stupid. IT did not happen.

HOwever, the only times I really did badly were times that I knew I
should not fly, but allowed myself to be talked into it, with totally
predictable results. Or, the only time that I consider that I was
really unsafe, was when I trusted the judgement of "more experienced
people" over my own. I flew badly, and knew I flew badly. What I
should have done was pulled the release at 1K and gone back
immediately to the ground. Nerves that are already on edge don't need
to be behind a tug. Like my other mistakes, it did not happen twice.

Can you spell QUITTER?

(Tom Seim) wrote in message . com...


YOu were the one that in your magnificent egotism thought you could
insinuate that Lennie was unsafe.

Who is the REAL Lennie? Who is this coward who doesn't want to use his
real name?

Brilliance! YOu know less than nothing, yet presume to make judgments
as to my capabilities. My personal email box had nothing in it this
morning, my lycos spambox had fifty or more. Maybe that might
penetrate the eternal and impenetrable fog between your ears, but I
doubt it. My first name is Richard, and my last name is of german
origin, which is not a point of pride, but something to overcome.
What my name is is of no consequence, those that I flew with know who
Lennie is. Not that it makes any difference, none of them know me
until something needs repairing anyhow. Not that it bothers me, I
*like* playing with my toys.

Neither one of which will in the slightest compensate for your false
statement that soaring was somehow safer because of the lack of my
participation. Do you know what a false statement is? It's called a
lie. You have no information at all as to who I am, who I flew with,
where I flew, or how well I flew, yet you know that it was not safe.
That makes your statement only a hateful lie, nothing more or less.
Black and white, there are no shades of gray. It is what I would
expect of you.

(Lennie the Lurker) wrote in message . com...
(Tom Seim) wrote in message . com...


YOu were the one that in your magnificent egotism thought you could
insinuate that Lennie was unsafe.

Who is the REAL Lennie? Who is this coward who doesn't want to use his
real name?

Brilliance! YOu know less than nothing, yet presume to make judgments
as to my capabilities. My personal email box had nothing in it this
morning, my lycos spambox had fifty or more. Maybe that might
penetrate the eternal and impenetrable fog between your ears, but I
doubt it. My first name is Richard, and my last name is of german
origin, which is not a point of pride, but something to overcome.
What my name is is of no consequence, those that I flew with know who
Lennie is. Not that it makes any difference, none of them know me
until something needs repairing anyhow. Not that it bothers me, I
*like* playing with my toys.

Neither one of which will in the slightest compensate for your false
statement that soaring was somehow safer because of the lack of my
participation. Do you know what a false statement is? It's called a
lie. You have no information at all as to who I am, who I flew with,
where I flew, or how well I flew, yet you know that it was not safe.
That makes your statement only a hateful lie, nothing more or less.
Black and white, there are no shades of gray. It is what I would
expect of you.

Anyone who wants to know what is going on in the mind of Lennie the
Lurker (and his real name and address) can do a Google search. What
you will find is some of the most vile and vulgar rants posted on news
groups by anyone. I seriously doubt that anyone who reads this trash
will want to be flying in the same state as you, let alone in a
gaggle. You did the sport a real favor by quitting, and I stand by my
statements.

This will be my final exchange with you.

Tom

Don Johnstone wrote in message ...
At 05:12 18 May 2004, Tom Seim wrote: (Snip)

Those
who can honestly answer yes and are flying within their
own limitations are the safe pilots. Those who are
not aware of the limitations or deliberately fly outside
them are something else. Anyone who recognises that
to continue when they are not sure of what they are
doing or realises that their committment has altered
and then act on that is not a quitter,

Not sure just how to clarify what I meant there, I think any person
will find that their absolute limitations are far beyond what they
think they are, but the difference is in the judgment call in being
able to avoid having to push to their limitations in the first place.
Almost like having a gap between our perceived limits and what the
limits really are. When, for one reason or another, that gap has been
removed, the trouble starts. All margin of safety has been removed,
and a bad judgment call will be fatal. I never doubted myself in that
area, margins of safety, after the initial beginners mistakes, was
more important than anything else.

Limitations in being able to spend the amounts of money needed, I
never doubted them, they can be calculated to the last cent. IT hit
the limit, and nothing happened to cause me to doubt what had to be
done. I never felt really comfortable at the field, and that made the
decision easier, as did a lot of other small factors.

I see seim hasn't answered you, and doubt that he will. I have him
backed into a corner on his insinuation, and there isn't any graceful
way out for him. Exactly where I plan on keeping it. No facts and a
big ego will do it every time.

(Tom Seim) wrote in message . com...

This will be my final exchange with you.


Hope you like being in a corner, until you admit you made insinuations
without having any facts, YOU WILL BE A LIAR. A Google search will
also confirm that nicely. You make me proud that I'm not a pilot, and
even more proud that I'm not a glider pilot.

Admit your lie, tommy boy. One like you will rot the whole barrel.

Hi Lennie,

Could you do me a big favor? Change your email handle... irony just
isn't your strong suit.

Thanks! Hope your world continues to turn predictably.

Best wishes for your and yours,

OC

Hi Lennie,

Could you do me a big favor? Change your email handle... irony just
isn't your strong suit.

Thanks! Hope your world continues to turn predictably.

Best wishes for you and yours,

OC