Sad day for Mxsmanic

Go ahead and engage the dumb ass. Most of us made that mistake at one time
or another. You will find he is nothing but a prick in sheeps clothing.

I try not to engage in conversations with him as I have 'known' him
for a couple of years now and know what he is like. He does partake
in other forums which relate specifically to the simulator/game and
believe me there is a similar attitude towards him by quite a few
there too.

I can empathise with most of your posts which I read last night (boy
is this thread long!). It is simply WRONG for MX to assume that he is
as 'good' as a real pilot because his soul training is based on the
simulator and theory from reading books and flight manuals. Yes they
DO help alot but you need that tactile feeling of flight and the true
effects of the controls which the sim cannot bring to life. It is
also WRONG for everyone here to completely disregard Microsoft's
software solely as a 'game' rather than a 'Training Aid' because of
your revulsion to MX's persona! I want to reiterate I'm defending the
simulator more than defending MX here.

FSX 'taught' me a hell of a lot before I even stepped into a real
cockpit. With the right add-ons and hardware it can be very
intutative and emersive. I have a proper yoke with throttle quadrant
with levers for mixture, throttle and flaps. I have rudder pedals
too. The highly detailed aircraft from PDMG have Full photorealistic
3D cockpits and with the use of a piece of hardware called TrackIR Pro
which can track your head movements allowing you to look and move all
around the flightdeck. Every switch is where it is on the real
aircraft, every dial does as it should, the glass cockpits are all
modelled exactly the same too. Ok I have NEVER stepped into a REAL
747 flightdeck but have a lot of flightdeck videos including the
excellent Virgin Atlantic 747-400 http://www.flight1.com/products.asp?product=ITV-74V-001
which goes over every system in fine detail and they are indeed very
well modelled by PMDG The 747-400 also comes with approximately a 700
page manual detailing all the systems and procedures so it's certainly
not for the average 'gamer'. Hundreds of differing failures can be
set to run at a timed point or randomly too to add realism with
failure checklists printed in the manuals.

I'm sure some of you guys would actually enjoy it if you tried it
properly with good quality payware aircraft, detailed airports and the
right hardware. It can teach you SO much when it comes to navigation.

Whilst I enjoy using FSX I will NEVER belittle a real pilot by saying
I'm better than you which is a pitfall MX quite often falls into but I
can whole heartidly state it CAN teach you a hell of a lot more than
some of you guys think. I don't know any of you guys or your
qualifications (I apologise) but for those with a basic PPL may I ask
if YOU stepped onto a flightdeck of a 747-400 or a 737NG would you
understand how to control it? A good flight simulator can help that
lack of knowledge.

Ibby

On Mar 2, 6:19*pm, Ibby wrote:

The NAV/RAD page
on the FMC can easily be setup as instructed and the aircraft can be
vectored by ATC on an intercept course

Ibby

Lbby,

Sounds like you do have a reasonable head on your shoulders so
hopefully you will get the gist of my post..

Imagine you in seat 20F. The plane you are in is inbound for LAX.
The plane is descending through 25000 feet. Sudden lurch in the
plane, due to the front row passengers (AKA pilot and copilot) keels
over dead.

Flight attendant calls into the cockpit, plane is still on the descent
profile and no answer. FA, decides it's an emergency, beats the
living daylights out fo the cockpit door to gain access (after all
it's locked from the inside) finds the bodies. Passengers seeing this
starts panicking. The FA's in turn have enough wits about them after
finding the dead bodies call into the cabin is there anybody in the
plane that is a pilot. Plane now descending through 15000 feet.

You raise your hand, the FA wisks you in the front seat, you now
descending through 10000 feet. Remember, jets don't descent at the
cozy rate of 500 fpm.

You really think you are going to have enough time to figure out how
to get the headset on, find the button to contact ATC, MOVE the bodies
out of your way to climb into the left or right seat, and then ATC is
going to have time to find someone to walk you through the complicated
FMC procedures before you buy the farm? There is no reset button, and
autoland is something that wouldn't be set on a descent profile for an
approach I don't think?????

Please think of the human adrenalin factor. Iceman we are not.....

The reality is that even as a private pilot, I seriously doubt that I
would be able to find the right knobs to twist in the vast array of
the digitalized world that would sit in front of me.

The stuff is massive to comprehend under a simulated environment
without the danger of buying the farm. To expect somebody like myself
who does fly a SE plane who never set foot in the cockpit of a
commercial jet to be able to follow programming instructions for the
FMC and set it up for autoladning just is not realistic.

Yeah, I am sitting at the comforts of my computer, I study day in and
day out of the procedures of a 767 FMC, the above scenario pans out.
You don't think a person wouldn't have a brain fart due to the
adrenalin factor from the chaos developing behind you from the
passengers and yourself saying WTF do I do next?

I can say with experience and working with the Garmin 430 simulator on
my computer and using the Garmin 430 in my plane, that the simulator
isn't the real deal. Clicking on the knob to tune the radio, moving
my mouse just a little bit without my head turnign ain't the real
deal.

Flying in my plane, scanning my instruments IN IMC, doing all I can to
reduce the movement of my head to tune my 430 is not the same as
clicking a mouse on my simulator. Is it the big knob or little knob,
Is it the knob on the right or is it the knob on the left. Little
knob, what do you mean little knob, I see bunches of knobs. what page
is the approach plate on, is it the big knob or little knob. Oh yeah,
still need to scan my instruments to stay upright. Dang it, can't
pull the manual out, I am flying a plane!

MSFS will NEVER simulate the real deal of push, pulling, turning,
tuning ir twisting any aircraft avionics. It doesn't simulate
reaching across the panel, holding the plane upright (remember, I have
to scan my instruments to remain upright, can't assume autopilot will
do that for you!!)

As I have posted many, many times, and I have used MSFS X. Flying an
approach on the computer just doesn't simulate the physical sensations
of IMC. Not sure if you ever been in IMC, not even sure if you are a
pilot, but if you never been in IMC, please talk to a IA rated pilot
and ask him to take you up. You will never look at a cloud the same
way.

BeechSundowner writes:

Imagine you in seat 20F. The plane you are in is inbound for LAX.
The plane is descending through 25000 feet. Sudden lurch in the
plane, due to the front row passengers (AKA pilot and copilot) keels
over dead.

Since the aircraft is on autopilot, there will be no lurch, unless CWS or CWP
are enabled by control movements (depends on the aircraft).

It doesn't work like you see in the movies, nor does it work like a Sundowner,
for that matter (I presume this is the aircraft with which you are familiar).

Flight attendant calls into the cockpit, plane is still on the descent
profile and no answer. FA, decides it's an emergency, beats the
living daylights out fo the cockpit door to gain access (after all
it's locked from the inside) finds the bodies.

Depending on jurisdiction and airline and aircraft, there may be a digital
code that the lead FA can enter to open the door to the cockpit.

You raise your hand, the FA wisks you in the front seat, you now
descending through 10000 feet. Remember, jets don't descent at the
cozy rate of 500 fpm.

They also don't descend below the altitude set on the MCP. The descent will
stop at the altitude cleared by ATC.

You really think you are going to have enough time to figure out how
to get the headset on, find the button to contact ATC, MOVE the bodies
out of your way to climb into the left or right seat, and then ATC is
going to have time to find someone to walk you through the complicated
FMC procedures before you buy the farm?

Absolutely. And the FMC need not necessarily even be used, since it's
possible to follow vectors and configure the aircraft for landing without it.

Of course, pilot incapacitation specifically during descent is even less
likely than pilot incapacitation in general.

There is no reset button, and
autoland is something that wouldn't be set on a descent profile for an
approach I don't think?????

As I've said, this isn't a Sundowner.

It's pretty straightforward to configure most airliners for autoland. It can
be done by following a few simple instructions. Interaction with the FMC may
or may not be required.

The aircraft can be partially configured as soon as a runway is assigned.
This would likely occur after contact with approach controllers. If it isn't
already in place when the pilots are incapacitated, it's easy to enter.

Please think of the human adrenalin factor. Iceman we are not.....

Adrenalin is not a problem.

The reality is that even as a private pilot, I seriously doubt that I
would be able to find the right knobs to twist in the vast array of
the digitalized world that would sit in front of me.

I agree. But you could find them easily with a bit of help from someone over
the radio.

I'm not a pilot, but I could probably find the knobs much more easily than
you, since I'm actually familiar with the cockpits of several airliners.

The stuff is massive to comprehend under a simulated environment
without the danger of buying the farm.

No, it's not, at least for someone of normal intelligence.

You vastly overestimate the difficulty of flying, particularly flying that
involves the manipulation of systems rather than yoke and rudder. Landing an
airliner is a matter of procedures (particularly autolanding) rather than
seat-of-the-pants barnstorming.

To expect somebody like myself
who does fly a SE plane who never set foot in the cockpit of a
commercial jet to be able to follow programming instructions for the
FMC and set it up for autoladning just is not realistic.

I agree, since it sounds like you've never studied it at all, and it certainly
doesn't work like the tiny little plane that you fly.

But, hopefully, you could follow instructions and land the airliner, just like
anyone else. You would not need any previous experience with flying, just the
ability to do as you are told. If you attempted to hand-fly the airplane on
the mistaken assumption that your limited experience with a tiny plane would
enable you to do this, however, you might get into trouble.

Yeah, I am sitting at the comforts of my computer, I study day in and
day out of the procedures of a 767 FMC, the above scenario pans out.
You don't think a person wouldn't have a brain fart due to the
adrenalin factor from the chaos developing behind you from the
passengers and yourself saying WTF do I do next?

No, I don't think so, not at all. People yell and scream in the movies; most
people aren't like that in real life, in emergency situations (in any group
there might be a screamer, but that's normally an exception to the rule).

I can say with experience and working with the Garmin 430 simulator on
my computer and using the Garmin 430 in my plane, that the simulator
isn't the real deal.

What are the differences? Garmin's simulators work just like the real
thing--that's the whole idea.

Flying in my plane, scanning my instruments IN IMC, doing all I can to
reduce the movement of my head to tune my 430 is not the same as
clicking a mouse on my simulator. Is it the big knob or little knob,
Is it the knob on the right or is it the knob on the left. Little
knob, what do you mean little knob, I see bunches of knobs. what page
is the approach plate on, is it the big knob or little knob. Oh yeah,
still need to scan my instruments to stay upright. Dang it, can't
pull the manual out, I am flying a plane!

What does this have to do with landing an airliner?

MSFS will NEVER simulate the real deal of push, pulling, turning,
tuning ir twisting any aircraft avionics.

It doesn't have to. Everyone today has years of experience in turning knobs
and manipulating other controls. A non-pilot wouldn't have experience in
operating flight controls of an airliner, but fortunately that would not be
required.

It doesn't simulate
reaching across the panel, holding the plane upright (remember, I have
to scan my instruments to remain upright, can't assume autopilot will
do that for you!!)

That might be true in your tiny plane, but rest assured, in an airliner, the
autopilot will indeed maintain level flight, and much, much more.

As I have posted many, many times, and I have used MSFS X.

With which add-ons?

Flying an approach on the computer just doesn't simulate the physical
sensations of IMC.

You don't need physical sensations. In fact, you're supposed to ignore
physical sensations in IMC.

Not sure if you ever been in IMC, not even sure if you are a
pilot, but if you never been in IMC, please talk to a IA rated pilot
and ask him to take you up. You will never look at a cloud the same
way.

I've been in IMC in aircraft many times. It didn't change my perspective on
clouds.

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...

No you're not, dumb ass, you have never left your desk.

No you're not, dumb ass, you have never left your desk.

I think he means as a passenger ;-(

Ibby

On Tue, 03 Mar 2009 04:59:33 +0100, Mxsmanic
wrote:

BeechSundowner writes:

Imagine you in seat 20F. The plane you are in is inbound for LAX.
The plane is descending through 25000 feet. Sudden lurch in the
plane, due to the front row passengers (AKA pilot and copilot) keels
over dead.

Since the aircraft is on autopilot, there will be no lurch, unless CWS or CWP
are enabled by control movements (depends on the aircraft).

Which instantly and reinforces the fact that you know *nothing*
because even the PMDG and LDS simulations all include the automatic
disconnect which happens when enough force is excerted on the control
column, a-la what would happen when the pilots keel over on it, or
grab it to execute a TCAS commanded evasive manuver (obviously in
addition to the AP disco button).

Just go look it up! writes:

Which instantly and reinforces the fact that you know *nothing*
because even the PMDG and LDS simulations all include the automatic
disconnect which happens when enough force is excerted on the control
column, a-la what would happen when the pilots keel over on it, or
grab it to execute a TCAS commanded evasive manuver (obviously in
addition to the AP disco button).

What makes you believe that an incapacitated pilot would hit the yoke with
enough force to disengage the autopilot? "Airplane" is a Hollywood work of
fiction, not real life.

Sounds like you do have a reasonable head on your shoulders so
hopefully you will get the gist of my post..

Thanks ;-)

You really think you are going to have enough time to figure out how
to get the headset on, find the button to contact ATC, MOVE the bodies
out of your way to climb into the left or right seat, and then ATC is
going to have time to find someone to walk you through the complicated
FMC procedures before you buy the farm? *There is no reset button, and
autoland is something that wouldn't be set on a descent profile for an
approach I don't think?????

First priority is NOT talking to ATC but retaining control of the
aircraft. If it is decending rapidly the FIRST button I would engage
is Altitude Hold which will start the aircraft to level out. This can
be easily reached without moving the Pilot or FO. The pilots can be
moved in a moment and ATC can be contacted once you have 'control'.
The radios are more than likely already tuned to the nearest
controller. The major part of the FMC will now be 'unimportant' as
you will no longer be required to continue on your planned route. The
Mode Control Panel (the buttons and dials on the glareshield) take
precedence over the FMC. For the FMC to control the flight director
two buttons require engaging - LNAV (Lateral Navigation) which
controls the roll mode and VNAV which control the Vertical Navigation
and Thrust. Changing the Heading on the MCP and pressing Heading
Select WILL disengage LNAV and the aircraft will no longer be
following the 'magenta' line as set out in the FMC's LEGS pages.
Changing the target altitude on the MCP will cause the aircraft to
level off at that altitude (if still in VNAV) i.e. say you were
currently descending from FL180 and planned altitude of your next
waypoint was FL60ft setting the MCP altitude to FL100 WILL cause the
aircraft to level off at 10000ft. If Vertical Speed is also selected
VNAV will disengage and the IAS/MACH window will open showing the
current speed (it blanks when the FMC is controlling the airspeed as
per parameters set in the FMC) this can then be manually reduced by
using the control knob. The only area of the FMC I can see which
requires input would be the NAV/RAD page which allows manual input of
VOR's NDB's and ILS's which would be essential for a controlled
landing.

Please think of the human adrenalin factor. *Iceman we are not.....

The reality is that even as a private pilot, I seriously doubt that I
would be able to find the right knobs to twist in the vast array of
the digitalized world that would sit in front of me.

I agree and stated before the majority of us would literally be
crapping ourselves. The sim DOES help however in understanding the
'digitised' controls and knobs. When I took my first flying lesson in
a Cessna 152 (yes basic in comparision) but it was exactly the same as
the payware aircraft I bought for the sim. I had NO fear what so ever
as I felt I had done it for years. I knew the effects of every
movement of the control column and rudder pedals etc etc.

The stuff is massive to comprehend under a simulated environment
without the danger of buying the farm. *To expect somebody like myself
who does fly a SE plane who never set foot in the cockpit of a
commercial jet to be able to follow programming instructions for the
FMC and set it up for autoladning just is not realistic.

Agree, fear would play a major part not just for your own life but
that of the other souls on board.
As stated before the majority of the FMC is obsolete and the aircraft
can be controlled via the MCP and the autopilot. ATC will quite often
vector a pilot with differing headings, speed restrictions and
altitude constraints to that on the FMC flightplan but in most cases
the PIC will use the MCP to make these temporary changes. ATC will
normally vector the pilot back onto an intercept course at some stage
to resume the planned route. Once the ILS frequency and course is
programmed into the NAV/RAD page of the FMC and the aircraft is on an
intercept course pressing LOC will enable the aircraft to capture the
ILS localiser and APP will allow the the capture of the glideslope.
When APP is pressed all 3 autopilots are engaged and thus the autoland
is armed. ATC can instruct you to reduce your airspeed via the control
knob and extend the flaps, landing gear can be lowered and landing
lights and strobes switched on prior to Flaps 20 with continual
slowing using the autothrottle system and further extension of the
flaps. Speed brakes are armed by moveing the spoiler level beside the
throttle to the armed position and Autobrakes can be set using the
rotary dial. Once all wheels are on the ground the trust reverser
levers can be pulled back until your ground speed is 80knots. I'm not
saying it will be a piece of cake but providing the runway is a CAT111
with autoland facilities it will be a hell of a lot easier than having
to disengage the autopilot and autothrottle system and hand fly and
flare the last 200ft then bringing the aircraft to a manual stop.


Yeah, I am sitting at the comforts of my computer, I study day in and
day out of the procedures of a 767 FMC, the above scenario pans out.
You don't think a person wouldn't have a brain fart due to the
adrenalin factor from the chaos developing behind you from the
passengers and yourself saying WTF do I do next?

You may well freak out some of cope better with pressure. I'm not
going to do an MX and say yeah I'm superman no problem.


Clicking on the knob to tune the radio, moving
my mouse just a little bit without my head turnign ain't the real
deal.

TrackIR is a great piece of hardware which interprets highly
accurately your head movement IRL. This changes your view and
position within the 3D virtual flightdeck on screen. I can look left
and right , up/down at the overhead panels, twist my head, lean
forward and back as I would in a real aircraft. All buttons and
switches are where they should be. I dont pretend to know anything
about your GPS you mention but some software vendors do a better job
at modelling components than others i.e. FSX default aircraft versus
the expensive PMDG aircraft. There is also the confines of the
platform. Microsoft created a 'platform' which other developers use
to the best of their abilities. Some elements just cannot be
intergrated in their models as the application doesn't support them.


Flying in my plane, scanning my instruments IN IMC, doing all I can to
reduce the movement of my head to tune my 430 is not the same as
clicking a mouse on my simulator. *Is it the big knob or little knob,
Is it the knob on the right or is it the knob on the left. *Little
knob, what do you mean little knob, I see bunches of knobs. *

That's how the simulator can help. They have 'big' knobs and 'little'
knobs as per the real aircraft
A simulator cannot help you deal with IMC conditions as you cannot
feel the movement of the aircraft. Unless your attention is 100%
fixed on instrument scanning you wont know your in a bank or descent
in the sim.

what page is the approach plate on

Approach plates are there to facilitate the control and management /
seperation of aircraft into/out busy airfields. In an emergency, now
I'm talking about a non-pilot flying, they would not be required. ATC
would HAVE to clear all other traffic out of your way and vector to
the active runway.

MSFS will NEVER simulate the real deal of push, pulling, turning,
tuning ir twisting any aircraft avionics. *It doesn't simulate
reaching across the panel, holding the plane upright (remember, I have
to scan my instruments to remain upright, can't assume autopilot will
do that for you!!)

This is where TrackIR helps enormously. You DO have to look to your
right along the instrumation panel, you DO have to use your right hand
to control knobs and switches via the mouse albeit and you DO have to
lean over to reach or improve your view of certain dials. In this
scenario autopilot would be essential with manual changes to the MCP.
There is NO way I would even consider trying to manually fly a
commerical airliner as keeping it straight and level without
overspeeding or stalling would be very difficult for a beginner.

As I have posted many, many times, and I have used MSFS X. *

Did you use payware aircraft or the default as there can be a world of
difference depending on the vendor

Flying an
approach on the computer just doesn't simulate the physical sensations
of IMC. *Not sure if you ever been in IMC, not even sure if you are a
pilot, but if you never been in IMC, please talk to a IA rated pilot
and ask him to take you up. *You will never look at a cloud the same
way.

you can purchase weather generating programmes which download current
weather METARS and generate appropriate cloud bases, winds, fogs, rain
etc within the sim. I agree the sim cannot generate the feel. I'm
NOT a qualified pilot and have never flown yet in IMC conditions. I
agree hand flying an aircraft in the simulator in IMC can be difficult
as you have zero sensation of movement.

Ibby

"BeechSundowner" wrote

As I have posted many, many times, and I have used MSFS X. Flying an
approach on the computer just doesn't simulate the physical sensations
of IMC. Not sure if you ever been in IMC, not even sure if you are a
pilot, but if you never been in IMC, please talk to a IA rated pilot
and ask him to take you up. You will never look at a cloud the same
way.
***********************************
You might as well give it up with this person, too. It is more likely that
you will have a real 747 qualified pilot on board, than you would likely
find a simmer with the kind of "practiced" on the 747. This one will never
concede, either.
--
Jim in NC

***********************************
You might as well give it up with this person, too. *It is more likely that
you will have a real 747 qualified pilot on board, than you would likely
find a simmer with the kind of "practiced" on the 747. *This one will never
concede, either.
--
Jim in NC

Jim

Believe me I'm nowhere near as bad as MX!!!

Are you saying that all that I have learnt and 'practiced' bears no
correlation to the systems and controls of a real 747-400 because it
does. I have watched a lot of real tutorial dvds (not talking about
little flyby clips on Youtube, but official licensed products on the
747 and 767 flightdecks). The position and behavior of EVERY switch
whether it on the overhead panel, radio panel, Mode Control Panel, the
glass cockpit, the FMC do EXACTLY as the real thing does. I know if I
press 'this' the aircraft will do 'that'. A full procedural checklist
MUST be followed (as per the real thing) for engine start including
APU, ground power, setting pumps to Aux and Auto, turning off packs
etc I know for FACT that if I was to sit down in a 747-400 flightdeck
(forgetting all this emergency landing issue) I could name a huge
majority of the switches, tell you where they are located and the
effect they have on the flight thus giving me some form of advantage
to that of a person who has never been on a flight deck OR used a
simulator/game.

I have openly stated it's a training aid and can successfully
compliment flight training for procedures and navigation flight
planning etc. I know it's not the be-all-and-end all tool that will
give you a PPL after a weeks use which is were MX falls short off. I
know there is a LOT more to learn about the dynamics of flight,
weather systems, regulations etc etc. I know alot of real life pilots
who use it and some are actually prominant members on this forum (but
keep quite), there are those with PPL's, instructors, a retired A320
captain and a retired Gulf War veteran who flew rotaries in the Gulf.
When I took my first flying lesson I felt I could have solo'd, laugh
as you may, but the controls, throttle, pitching, descending, straight
and level flight, torque effects of the prop had ALL been experienced
by me in the sim so I already knew how to compensate for them. I was
turning to certain bearings, climbing/descending to set altitudes,
trimming the aircraft, maintaining set speeds - ALL on my first lesson
and ALL picked up entirely from the sim. As I've already said we all
need real lessons too but the sim CAN help as it has already done for
me.

Ibby